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Secret places

  • somtam2000

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    Hey all,

    As you can imagine both Sam, myself and the researchers see more than our fair share of places to see and stay. Often these places are already well known, but every now and then we find somewhere very special that nobody has ever heard of that we think is just brilliant and we get a lot of satisfaction out of writing these places up and hopefully sending them some of you lot.

    So, to the point of the this post, if we were to find somewhere like this and list them, then to have them get in touch and ask to be delisted because they wanted to keep the place "secret" what would you want us to do? Do what the guesthouse asks or tell you what we think the best places are?

    Interested to hear people's thoughts.

    #1 Posted: 23/3/2011 - 17:53

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  • SBE

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    Do what the guesthouse asks or tell you what we think the best places are?

    Do you often get guesthouses asking you to keep their locations secret Somtam??

    Nowadays people rely far too much on guidebooks etc and head straight to places that have been "recommended" by a travel guide. Because of this lemming effect, recommended guesthouses are assured of customers showing up and there's no need for them to keep up standards to attract customers. Many formerly good places seem go rapidly downhill once they get a good mention in guidebooks.

    I think it's quite refreshing for a guesthouse to ask to get delisted. Word of mouth and repeat customers probably bring them all the business they need. Go for it. (What was the guesthouse in question by the way...sounds like a great place!) ;-)

    #2 Posted: 23/3/2011 - 18:48

  • somtam2000

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    First time been asked something like this.

    Cheers

    #3 Posted: 24/3/2011 - 04:31

  • caseyprich

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    Though I'd love to know of the great places you recommend I think you should respect the wishes of the guesthouse. Just feels like the right thing to do.

    #4 Posted: 24/3/2011 - 05:56

  • exacto

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    I agree that honoring their wishes is the right thing to do. Besides, one of the best parts of travelling is to get out there and discover these types of places on our own. Cheers.

    #5 Posted: 24/3/2011 - 07:27

  • eastwest

    Joined Travelfish
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    Posts: 772

    I understand the conflict of interest and think you should honor their wishes.
    Being a business owner in this region you should also understand that not every business owner is looking for high volumes. Some don't have the financial pressure to need big volumes or entirely other reasons
    Other reason could be that it's also a marketing strategy. Perhaps the place isn't aiming for backpackers and relies on the "I know a secret"-factor to get the right people in.

    Related is my situation: I asked the Lonely planet not to make my restaurant "their pick". My place is a more upmarket restaurant where guests enjoy the food, serenity and nature by the sea and I don't want the place to get flooded with the LP crowd ordering fried rice and a small water. Nothing wrong with it in itself but there are other places for that. It would change the business and my life.

    #6 Posted: 24/3/2011 - 11:58

  • somsai

    Joined Travelfish
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    Agree. If they don't want to be listed so be it, would think a GH would want all the traffic they could bear, and Tfish isn't Lonely Planet.

    Personally I pretty much never mind reading that some place I thought not many knew about is now listed somewhere. Almost everyone only goes to the most famous overcrowded places in a country anyway. Unless there's an airport, ATM, and English speaking guest house with menu people won't go.

    #7 Posted: 25/3/2011 - 08:31

  • Positivetra-
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    I agree. I think you should respect the wishes of the guesthouse. Even though I would love to know of the places you discover-sometimes, not listing places/guesthouses etc, drives people to discover their own favourite places too.

    #8 Posted: 29/3/2011 - 01:19

  • jnelson232

    Joined Travelfish
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    Isn't withholding information from Travelfish readers a bit insulting? In what other journalistic medium would this kind of request be taken seriously? How do you a review an area, recommend it to travelers, and then not tell people the "secret place" you stayed at?
    Withholding recommendations is assuming that most Travelfish readers are not responsible backpackers and are more likely to convince their tour bus to stop off at a secret location and ruin it with speedos and demanding cheeseburgers.

    This is what I believe seperates Travelfish in terms of quality from Lonely Planet who one year recomends a beach/hostel/bar/etc. and in the next years guide belittle those who go there.

    In my opinion travel writing is for sharing amazing experiences and inspiring people to not only travel, but to travel in positive way.

    #9 Posted: 29/3/2011 - 03:20

  • eastwest

    Joined Travelfish
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    Posts: 772

    Interesting thought although I don't agree with a few assumptions:
    - Travelfish readers are not all the same. Read the forum and you get people looking for culture, parties, cheap accom or plush accom, 1 week travel or 1 year travel. I think it's great that there are different people.
    - A journalist is not objective. Many journalists withhold things upon request. Names of sources and "off the record" comments. In the end it is a story from and written by the journalist. A journalist never gives a full list of accommodations. It wouldn't help the story. He/she only lists what he/she thinks would suit the reader. If it's for an upmarket story he/she won't mention backpackers accommodation and vice versa.

    You and I like travelfish just for that last reason: a biased approach from the writer towards independent and adventurous travel. It is therefore also that I would trust his judgement in this matter.

    Anyway, I think most true Travelfisher, as you envisage them, would want to discover those places themselves. A pointer by TF in the general direction is mostly enough for the adventurous TFer

    #10 Posted: 29/3/2011 - 09:41

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  • jnelson232

    Joined Travelfish
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    I agree on most points.
    But in this case the source and information are the same thing. If you are reviewing a specific area you don't withhold what you've learned. In that case, why bother writing the article at all? Just post a link to the official tourist bureau website.

    A writer should be selective on what they include and not include in an article. But this should be based on whether it deserves to be left out, not because someone asked them to omit it.

    #11 Posted: 30/3/2011 - 14:46

  • caseyprich

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    Travel writing is not investigative journalism.

    If I were running a website like this I'd be doing it out of passion to share experience and information, not out of some journalistic ethics - and part of that would be to respect the people I meet around the way, and respect their wishes.

    For example, if you stumbled across a quiet village and stayed there and the people were nice - but at the end they asked you not to share the location because they didn't want a lot of tourists to come by, the odd visit was fine by them - would you then betray that trust by reporting it? What makes a village different than a hotel? You may say it is a business open to the public - well, if I own a business I can always refuse customers if I want.

    #12 Posted: 30/3/2011 - 15:09

  • somtam2000

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    Just to answer my own question, after further discussions with the place concerned, they're still listed.

    Our concern wasn't so much that being listed on TF would result in them being over-run in TFers, but rather that writers for other publications, who use TF as a source for places to check out may write the place up and that could well result in the place being over-run... if that makes sense. It's very small, and, without some pretty specific directions (which I had), rather difficult to find.

    There was a case in Laos a few years back when the Gibbon Experience requested that they not be listed by a guidebook company. The publisher agreed and didn't list them, though did alude to their being something interesting in northern Bokeo. Travellers weren't happy because within a year GibbonX was pretty well known and it made the book look mediocre, when, in fact, the researcher had been there.

    Agree a researcher should be selective in what they list - it's a guide not a phonebook - but I guess, like the phonebook, there is always the option to have a silent number and not be listed - and you gotta ask to get one of those.


    Anyways, this is the first time something like this has happened, and the place is still on the site, so don't worry about a second list I keep of all the best places ;-)

    #13 Posted: 30/3/2011 - 15:36

  • eastwest

    Joined Travelfish
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    Posts: 772

    I thought I saw some interesting views and would like to react even though it's a bit late.

    @ jnelson. With your last comment you could add "or ask them to add it". I still stand by my point that this writing is purely subjective and the writer should do as he/she sees fit. Whether it's upon request of the hotel or the reader. We were never promised, when we signed up, that we would get all information available.
    My last question is why you ask for such a thing while in the same piece you also condemn LP for steering tourists too much and then belittle them (because the place gets too popular).

    @ casey. I also don't get your point. I conclude from your reaction that a travel writer shouldn't be ethical? Doesn't that go against almost everything backpacking and travel stand for? We respect the reader and our personal wishes but about the people we visit we couldn't care less.

    @ somtam. I would love to have a copy of that second list of which you say you don't have it. That is off course because they asked you....

    #14 Posted: 5/4/2011 - 19:37

  • caseyprich

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    perhaps my punctuation is misleading - or i'd had too much bourbon when i was writing - my comment was in response to jnelson232 - I was attempting to say that this is not necessarily a journalistic endeavor, and so the idea that as a journalist you should objectively share the information you gather without consideration of your sources feelings, but instead to do a duty for your audience, would be against the nature of this site as a travel based and not a purely journalistic space.

    I think my example was poorly organized. My idea is that I would not discuss the location, but that others might say that you should as a journalist discuss it and it is up to the villagers to turn the people away if they like. I however, would respect the wishes of the local people.

    #15 Posted: 5/4/2011 - 20:58

  • eastwest

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    Ah, I already did find it out-of-synch with your other posts. We have the same opinion then

    #16 Posted: 6/4/2011 - 12:31

  • Sampan

    Joined Travelfish
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    I'd say keep the secret. It would be good to know that there are some left to be discovered. :)

    #17 Posted: 6/4/2011 - 16:23

  • jnelson232

    Joined Travelfish
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    Location United States
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    @eastwest
    You do make a strong point and I guess this is an issue that is very conflicting for me. On one hand as a person visiting new countries I hate the idea of people withholding information about places I might really love. Sometimes you only get a short amount of time in places and naturally culling information about spots can be near impossible.
    The flip side to that coin is that having been to some places that are more unknown I would hate to see them overrun. I feel both protective and selfish all at once. As each new found place is filled to the brim it makes me wonder if this can go on indefinitely.

    I think this does raise the question of what type of role a travel writer should take and how much responsibility they have to an area they write about.

    Hopefully I am not the only hypocritical traveler out there who may or may not use LP and make fun of it at the same time.

    #18 Posted: 7/4/2011 - 14:24

  • eastwest

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    I think you've nailed it and you certainly are not the only hypocrite here. Probably 95% of travellers are, including me.
    Fact is that there are very few real explorers and that there isn't that much left to truly explore. Most of us, wannabee explorers, just woud like to travel with a guidebook and use that as a reference ad at the same time would like to avoid the places that become too crowded because of the guidebooks.

    Perhaps start a "secret" society/website with such "secret"information.

    #19 Posted: 8/4/2011 - 10:39

  • MADMAC

    Joined Travelfish
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    "...ruin it with speedos and demanding cheeseburgers."

    I demand a cheeseburger every day over at the noodle shop around the corner of my house, and everyday the cute girl there tells me she doesn't make cheeseburgers, only noodle soup. I wonder if I am ruining the Indochina market?

    #20 Posted: 9/4/2011 - 22:14

  • SBE

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    I've been itching to ask and I just can't resist any longer....


    What colour speedos were you wearing MM? ;-)

    #21 Posted: 10/4/2011 - 17:13

  • MADMAC

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    It ain't a swimming place... so alas, no speedos. But I sure could go for a good burger.

    #22 Posted: 10/4/2011 - 17:22

  • eastwest

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    They might serve you that cheeseburger if you wear speedos.

    Probably one of those secrets that somtam holds back upon request.

    #23 Posted: 11/4/2011 - 11:56

  • SBE

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    I've still having ghastly visions of people in red speedos and lace up shoes demanding cheeseburgers at Issan noodle shops.

    But to get back on topic, it occurred to me that if Somtam had asked whether he should remove a listing because the owner thought it was too negative I'd have probably said no... unless the review really wasn't fair and objective.

    I wondered why that was and came to the conclusion that it's because knowing where the bad places are is actually more useful than getting told where the good places are.

    When somewhere gets a rave review everyone heads there but few actually manage to stay, because it's invariably full. The person who benefits most from the rave review is the GH owner, not the person using the guide.Prices invariably get hiked up and it doesn't matter if standards fall because a constant stream of guests are going to show up anyway.

    The majority of places are nether exceptionally good nor exceptionally bad, choosing one rather than another makes little difference so do I really need the opinion of a researcher who's probably never stayed there either? Could well be that the "cheap and comfortable" place I underlined in LP has got bedbugs, a 10W light bulb and techno music wafting through the window all night, whereas all that was wrong with the "slight scruffy" place I rejected out of hand was a bit of peeling paintwork.

    As exacto has pointed out, one of the best parts of travelling is to get there and discover good places on your own. If guidebooks just listed the dumps to be avoided at all costs there's always a chance you'll find a gem.and even if you don't it'll probably be OK.

    Other advantages:

    Overpriced dumps would be highly motivated to improve things in order to get off the guidebook listings ASAP.

    Improved accuracy. Concentrating on the truly awful places would mean researchers had far fewer places to review....so they'd be able to actually stay in the GHs they write about. [img]smileys/smile.gif[/img]

    People would no longer all be stampeding to the same GHs. The herd would be more spread out so you're less likely to have to tramp around hours looking for a vacancy.

    Prices would reflect the quality of the accommodation better. With no more guaranteed customers showing up, GHs would have to provide decent value for money if they want business.

    You'd be less likely to miss newly opened guesthouses.New guesthouses are usually spotlessly clean and eager to please guests. Under the current system hardly anyone finds them unless a researcher happens to trip over them

    Guesthouses who self promoted would be automatically listed until a researcher got round to checking them out. Bye bye spammers!

    PS. If anyone (like LP) wants to use this idea, please PM me about copyright. [img]smileys/wink.gif[/img]

    #24 Posted: 13/4/2011 - 03:40

  • eastwest

    Joined Travelfish
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    Interesting thught but you forgot to clearly state what the point/your idea is. Did you mean that guidebooks/sites should write only about the bad places and leave out positive reviews?

    The way you've put it it sounds alright but I guess only for the adventurous backpackers. I just don't think guidebooks will stand in line to print such a thing because it will come across as negative. The majority of the people/tourists want to have the things spelled out for them and aren't that adventurous. These people are also the ones that buy the most books.

    Anyway, I like the idea and would definitely buy one

    #25 Posted: 13/4/2011 - 10:59

  • caseyprich

    Joined Travelfish
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    I agree that I'll usually pay more attention to the negative reviews - where to avoid, then I will the positive reviews. Precisely for the reason that the positive reviewed places are usually full anyway.

    An example is certainly Pakse and most of Southern Laos when I was there in February. I'd get in with the crowd on a bus and while they all ran off to Sabaidy 2 I headed over to Sedong River Guesthouse and got the last room. God bless that most people were toting around their LP while I had my Travelfish printouts. In the next hour I saw everyone who got off at Sabaidy 2 wandering around town still looking for somewhere to stay.

    Of further note - those who did get spots at Sabaidy 2 were less than impressed while I had a great river view for evening drinks on the patio.

    #26 Posted: 13/4/2011 - 11:39

  • eastwest

    Joined Travelfish
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    Posts: 772

    Ok, I get all that. Let me try to think along the same lines and try to see if we can help SBE with developing the idea.

    So, if people get off the bus in Pakse they will look into their guidebook and find only negative reviews. Where will they go?
    My guess is they will go to the GH with the least worse review and still not be so adventurous to discover their own place. And to be honest: after a long bustrip and searching for a stopover place I'd like to just know what I'm headed for. If the (good review)place is full I can still discover my own place. For long term stay it's different for me.

    And does the guidebook say that all other choices (which are not mentioned) are better? That seems to be a risky business for the guidebook because then they'd have to check each and every GH before they can print that. No small feat. What if a non-mentioned place is terrible? As a guidebook buyer I would be pissed off.

    And as a business owner myself I'd have to say that is quite harsh. Especially if it is from a guidebook because the business will have a bad reputation for 2-3 years while improvements may have happened a long time ago....You can be certain that after sometime (if/when you've built up a reputation) you won't be welcome in many places.

    #27 Posted: 13/4/2011 - 14:56

  • SBE

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    Did you mean that guidebooks/sites should write only about the bad places and leave out positive reviews?

    Yes, turn the whole guidebook concept on it's head and give backpackers a backpacker guide. Most people seem to use LP exactly as they would a glossy brochure in a travel agency.... they select a destination from a list then select accommodation from another list. Backpackers are being turned into package tourists.

    I don't carry a guide with me, not even TF. Books are too heavy to lug around and I haven't got an iphone. Sometimes I look at other people's LP books though. I've noticed that for any given town in LP, the same 3 or 4 guesthouses tend to get underlined out of a list of say 20 similar priced ones. Presumably they get marked because the review sounds a teeny bit more positive or the price quoted is slightly cheaper. LP is notorious for providing out of date pricing so the prices are probably wrong. Is scrutinizing reviews for linguistic nuances a reliable way of choosing the "best" one? I don't think so.

    I haven't worked out all the finer details yet (my brain tends to be more creative after a few glasses of bordeaux) but I do agree that people need some clue as to where they might find accommodation when they arrive in a new place.

    What about a map with colour-coded dots indicating the location according to price range? Only the god awful places would be named and shamed so you'd know which ones to avoid. Any place that isn't named is worth a look. No specific recommendations, no the troop of sheep effect.

    #28 Posted: 13/4/2011 - 15:16

  • SBE

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    @eastwest, sorry I didn't see you'd made another post when I was replying earlier, so to reply to some of your specific points...

    If the (good review)place is full I can still discover my own place.


    So what use was the guidebook? Wouldn't it be more time efficient to start discovering your own place without making detours to places that are unlikely to have any vacancies? This said, a map with dots isn't the perfect solution either... the unnamed places nearest the bus station in Pakse are likely to be where everyone stampedes to first. Same same but different.

    And does the guidebook say that all other choices (which are not mentioned) are better? That seems to be a risky business for the guidebook because then they'd have to check each and every GH before they can print that. No small feat. What if a non-mentioned place is terrible? As a guidebook buyer I would be pissed off.

    No, the guidebook says all the other choices are worth a look. You take responsibility for deciding whether to stay there based on what YOU see. Like a proper grown up.

    You wouldn't necessarily have to send researchers to look at every single guesthouse either. You could use human nature. If someone has had a terrible experience with a GH they tend to want to shout about it. Few people bother mentioning OK places and the ones who find hidden gems are often rather reluctant to publicize them. Instead of dictating where to go from on high, involve the users... Please let us know if you find a complete dump we missed. If it sounds truly awful, we'll check it out to see if it's bad enough to go on our listings!


    What if a non-mentioned place is terrible? As a guidebook buyer I would be pissed off.

    LP recommended places are often terrible too but that doesn't seem to have unduly affected their sales figures. Involving the users would probably help them stop feeling so pissed off ... there's actually something they can do to get back at the GH. Power to the people.




    the business will have a bad reputation for 2-3 years while improvements may have happened a long time ago.

    And that ISN'T a problem with conventional guidebooks?

    The last LP book I ever bought (5 or 6 years ago) was a hot off the press, the brand new edition of their Burma guide. One of the places I stayed at wasn't recommended because, according to them, the town clock right next to it chimed loudly every 15 minutes. I went to have a look anyway as it was nearer the bus station ... it was a bit run down, obviously suffering from lack of clients, but the people were nice so I stayed. After a while I realized I hadn't heard the clock chiming once so I asked the owner about it... he replied that the clock had stopped working 10 years ago... ie LP hadn't actually visited the place for at least a decade. I was practically the only guest there... everyone else had headed straight to the place that sounded better in LP.

    It wasn't an isolated incident either... in fact there were so many inaccurate and/or really out of date reviews in that book that I got the impression the only update they'd done was to change the cover photograph. I actually threw the book away because it was so useless.

    #29 Posted: 13/4/2011 - 22:47

  • eastwest

    Joined Travelfish
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    Posts: 772

    Interesting thoughts and while I agree with some things my main issue is that it wouldn't be hugely popular. You'd cater to a very small part of the travelmarket but those would truly appreciate it.

    "Involving the users would probably help them stop feeling so pissed off ... there's actually something they can do to get back at the GH. Power to the people"

    "getting back" at a GH? What is this? Sopranos? I think that in general these popular places started with the best intentions and did offer great service/facilities but because they became too popular they couldn't cope. You make it sound as if they've turned criminal.
    I do like the consistency of a travelwriter (there are some other topics about this) and would highly suspect a book/site only based on traveler reviews unless it has 20-30 reviews about a single place.

    "Backpackers are being turned into package tourists."

    I think you give the guidebooks too much credit here. The definition of backpacking has widened and it has just become some sort mandatory thing to do for most youngsters before they go to uni/work. A lot of people treat it as a sort of cheap package holiday but with the freedom to stay longer/shorter in some places. Throw in a busride in a local bus and the backpacking trip is complete for most. See some temples, get a taste of different culture and have fun before uni/work and serious life starts.
    You're right if you say that LP caters too much for that crowd but can you really blame them? They run a business and they've choosen to not cater exclusively to "real" backpackers anymore.

    You may have to thank them because you can fill that void now and, like travelfish, write a guidebook for "real" backpackers.

    #30 Posted: 14/4/2011 - 09:34

  • MADMAC

    Joined Travelfish
    6th June, 2009
    Posts: 6374
    Total reviews: 10

    In a round about way, you guys have cut at the core of defining a "backpacker" or "Traveller". And as you whittle away to the nub, low and behold we find they are tourists, which can be marketted to. And are. Within the psyche of the backpacker "movement", if you will, is a desire to be different. To be set aside. To be viewed as having taken up some sort of challenge and been found worthy. And there are a host of pre-conceived notions associated with that. Not to be a slave to convention, to be interested in other cultures, to be worldly... etc. etc. etc.
    The problem with this is that most people want the badge of having been (or being) a "traveller", but don't actually want to get off the beaten path. That's because when you leave that path, suddenly English doesn't cut it. You can't order the food you want, and what you get might not be edible. Things suddenly become a challenge. Most people don't want that, they just want the badge. Books like Lonely Planet help you get the badge without the challenge. That's the marketing strategy.
    I thought it was interesting how SBE viewed this (or was it Eastwest?) as something people do before they go to College or University. You know what I did? I worked a full time job at a bakery to save money for school. Rich kids with a silver spoon up their ass might do that, but the rest of us can't afford to do that. Even in Europe, where the taxpayer is funding a lot of university education, there is still plenty of overhead. The idea of going backpacking as something to do before school only applies to those with discretionary income - the perfect target for someone like Lonely Planet.
    This is why, as all you old timers here on travelfish have already noted, I take such umbrage with the sanctimonious beatnik. It is what I consider the worst kind of tourist. Fortunately most people here don't fit that description, and indeed if you look at most of the "backpacker" types now as it has evolved, there are many older types who are simply trying to live cheaper to stretch their hard earned dollar (or whatever currency) for their vacation and enjoy a different experience. LP targets them too. And they have earned some discretionary income to spend on guide books.
    Therefore, I would say that your average tourist wants Lonely Planet to tell them where to go. It's a lot easier if someone tells you where to go, than if you have to figure that out for yourself by default. So as intriguing as the idea is of listing the negatives, I don't think it will fly, although personally it has an appeal to me.

    #31 Posted: 14/4/2011 - 11:26

  • eastwest

    Joined Travelfish
    17th December, 2009
    Posts: 772

    I think we agree on most things. Only the notion that it's only rich kids doing the travelling is wrong in my opinion.

    First of all you don't need to be extremely rich nowadays to fly to SE-asia and enjoy a cheap 3 months here. With a few odd student jobs anyone can make $3000 now and do that trip. Even a 3 week beach-holiday to Thailand is almost the same price as such a vacation in Spain on the Costa del Sol

    It's far more socially acceptable, I would even say mandatory in some circles, to make such trips compared to 20-30 years ago. Better communication is one of the main reasons and there is this feeling now that everyone does it.

    I even know for a fact that a lot of companies like it if they see on a CV of a job applicant that they've travelled/backpacked. Life experience and such. You can leave the comments, it's not my opinion

    As for SBE's plan. Why make it so negative? Just focus on the little "real" backpacker market with a positive guide and just give pointers: "Avoid this area (Pham Ngu Lao, Khao San Rd.) and have a look in this district X where a cluster of friendly little GHs is"
    Just reproduce the LP from the early days or something like it

    #32 Posted: 14/4/2011 - 19:32

  • MADMAC

    Joined Travelfish
    6th June, 2009
    Posts: 6374
    Total reviews: 10

    Eastwest
    I can say that if i told my dad (who helped me to the tune of 2,000 USD to fund my education) I'm going take my bakery money and go to SEA for vacation, he'd have told me that I must not need any financial help from him then. Three grand is a lot of money. Again, if a kid has that kind of money to spend as discretionary income before he goes to school, that's an indicator of a family with significant resources. Maybe not what we would define as "rich" anymore, but certainly well enough off. But from a lonely planet point of view, that's the market. Working class kids who are struggling to pay for school aren't going backpacking in SEA. Kids with discretionary income - that's the market.

    #33 Posted: 14/4/2011 - 23:14

  • SBE

    Click here to learn more about SBE
    Joined Travelfish
    14th April, 2008
    Location Global Village
    Posts: 1951
    Total reviews: 5
    Places visited:
    At least 2

    As for SBE's plan. Why make it so negative? Just focus on the little "real" backpacker market with a positive guide and just give pointers: "Avoid this area (Pham Ngu Lao, Khao San Rd.) and have a look in this district X where a cluster of friendly little GHs is"

    My main point (I think) is that right now there are millions of people reading LP and everyone is directed to the same limited number of accommodation recommendations. The likelihood that these places are full is quite high yet the book gives no clue where to go if they are and most guides use the same concept LP does.

    My idea was that it would be useful to know where the dumps are so that you don't waste too much time searching...OK, there's a complete dump 200m away on my left and a place that might be OK 250m away on my right. Turn right.

    Your idea would probably work too though.

    And I have no intention of actually producing this book myself. Sounds far too much like hard work ... I'll just rake in the royalties. [img]smileys/wink.gif[/img]

    #34 Posted: 15/4/2011 - 04:03

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