Culture and politics forum

Agreed, there are a number of sites in Thailand linked to the PLAT's struggle. Phu Hin Rong Kla National Park in Phitsanulok is particularly amazing. As mentioned by Madmac, Phu Sa Dok Bua NP was the scene of fighting, as were large stretches of Nan province and the remoter parts of Kanchanaburi -- esp. up towards Sangkhlaburi.

Also, probably less known, there are Communist tunnels outside Betong in Yala province -- they were linked to the Malay Emergency, with Malay communists hiding out in Thailand. They're surprisingly similar to the Viet Cong tunnels in Vietnam.

Also, along the western border, especially in Mae Hong Son and Tak provinces there are numerous refugee camps that continue to act as resupply camps for the ongoing struggle in Burma.

Lots more than beaches and trekking ;-)

Thaiman
Yeah, I was reading that myself. The Karen don't have the muscle to hold off the Burmese Army... really their insurgency is counter-productive.

Sayadian
US hasn't provided arms to Burma for a very long time.

The Burmese government is trying to subjugate the Karen, not exterminate them. So the Karen do have a choice, they choose to resist the regime with armed force, and that is only going to bring more violence into their neighborhood. They can not hold their own.

Also, I wouldn't romanticize them. The Karen guerilla's have committed some serious attrocities. They are neither a disciplined fighting force nor one that follows the laws of land warfare whatsoever.

"'The Burmese government is trying to subjugate the Karen, not exterminate them'
Hell, if it's anything like the way they 'subjugate' the rest of the country.I think I'd rather make a stand than capitulate to that."

And they do - but it won't help them and it will only make their quality of life worse. As it has to date.

"I don't think I ever romanticised them. Admired maybe because they've got guts."

The Karen rebel movement is a gangster movement. They are thugs. They rape, murder, steal, oppress. They are no better than the Army they are fighting.

"'nor one that follows the laws of land warfare whatsoever.'
I don't know what you mean by the laws of land warfare.They are a bunch of guerillas not a disciplined army."

No political armed movement is exempt from the laws of land warfare. Have you ever heard of the SNM? Founded in 1981 it was a group of Isaaq based insurgents. It DID follow the laws of land warfare, fought a VERY difficult campaign against the repressive regime of Mohammed Siad Barre, and it did not shame itself in the process. Guerillas in the movement who committed attrocities (and there were not many) were tried and executed. They maintained a disciplined fighting force.

"Even so regular troops commit atrocities with impunity and always have.That's not an opinion it's a fact."

It's also a fact that in many cases they are tried, convicted, and imrpisoned. There are a number of these in Leavenworth right now. It's also a fact that to commit such crimes is not policy among modern western armies. To compare the Karen movement to a professional military force is not an accurrate comparison - FACT.

Sayadian
Tough to find good open source info on the KNU - in other sources there is a fair amount. The press do not report much on any atrocities committed in Burma unless done by the Tatmadaw... for obvious reasons. I'll see what I can dig up on specifics.

I am sympathetic with the Karen, but not with their armed resistance movement which has brought them nothing but misery.

"Perhaps if the Burmese opened the country to journos to freely report on both sides you'd read more!"

I doubt it due to motivations... but they aren't going to do that anyway. The problem now is it is very difficult for this government to change. It has been thoroughly criminalized as has the entire security apparatus. Too many people have too big a stake in the status quo not changing. Unless the Burmese opposition is willing to undergo some sort of truth and reconcialiation council, like south Africa had, it will be tough to change.

oops forgot to delete the last para.Please ignore

As my footer infers, I've done my time in front of and behind weapons.

I long ago learnt "the first casualty of war is truth" and I dare say it would be helpful to hold this as faith when making judgements on any military endeavour.

One of the more interesting things I've noted when wandering around hilltribe areas is how quickly these people lose their ethnic identity when $$$'s are on the table.

Similarly, ideology (especially Marxian based ones) also takes a back seat to $$$'s.

This suggests the many of the current global struggles take place in poverty, or at least significant discrimination.

Thus, economic prosperity (but, sadly, neither the Hayekian or trickle-down models as advocated by the US) may well be a means to diminish small regional conflicts.

Take it from me, there will never ever be winners from war - merely a lot of losers: some more so than others!

Mmmm!! (can't say Cheers to this topic)

"Take it from me, there will never ever be winners from war - merely a lot of losers: some more so than others!"

I don't know. I have fought in two campaigns, and I would do them both again in a heartbeat. It might sound strange, but my days in combat were the best days of my life.

"MADMAC

What role did you undertake in the 'campaigns' - were you perhaps a dancer?"

Several roles - all in the intel field which is where I worked. Except on three occassions on my last assignment when I was a team leaders for a small team of 19 guys... No demand for dance instruction at the time.

"Some in this world have to do the ugly, dirty stuff, you know, where people actually get maimed for life, or killed!!!"

Indeed. When I fought in Somalia there was a lot of that sort of stuff.

I don't know what a Pogo is, but I can assure you that while I did spend plenty of time behind a desk, I also spent plenty of time in the field too. I wasn't behind a desk in Mogadischu, I wasn't behind a desk in Iraq and I wasn't behind a desk in the Ogaden either. I did spend most of my time behind a desk in Sarajevo and Haiti, if that makes you feel better.