Southeast Asia forum

Cambodia/Laos/Vietnam in 3 weeks only??

  • Intrepid82

    Joined Travelfish
    21st April, 2009
    Posts: 33

    I am having trouble trying to fit Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos into three weeks!

    I have the option of a 10 day tour of Vietnam (with the option of travelling north from HCMC or South from Hanoi).

    I am trying to find the most time and cost efficient way to include the following places in my trip:
    Siem Reap/ Angkor Wat
    Vientiane
    Vang Vieng
    Luang Prabang

    The maximum time I can spend is 21 days. I would like at least 3 days in Luang Prabang, and 3 days in Angkor.

    Any help on figuring out an itinerary/ the best order in which to travel/routes would be appreciated....I'm finding it hard to assess travel times between these destinations!

    #1 Posted: 21/4/2009 - 11:38

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  • seagypsy

    Joined Travelfish
    5th February, 2009
    Posts: 136

    It would really help if you gave us an idea as to which country you're from and which country in SEA you're using as your entry/exit hub.
    Many travelers use Bangkok as their hub because it's inexpensive but you might also consider 'open jawing' your flights such that you fly into Siem Reap or Phnom Penh or Saigon and fly back out via Bangkok or another of the cities already mentioned. I would not recommend roundtripping in Vietnam because this means that you'll need 2 Viet visas since you're leaving Vietnam at some point to visit the other countries.
    Anyways, if Siem Reap is an option as the first city you fly into, then you could spend 3-4 days there first before taking a VIP 5 hour bus to Phnom Penh which is good for a couple days.
    While in PP, you can arrange overland transport to Saigon provided you've already gotten a Viet visa in advance OR you can get it while in Cambodia (working days only).
    It's the better part of a day getting from PP to Saigon/HCMC.
    Saigon is worth a couple days before you fly via Viet budget airline Pacific Airlines to Danang where you can transfer to Hoi An . Hoi An is good for a couple days and then overland via a van tranfer to Hue, also good for a couple days or so.
    Then fly or overnight sleeper compartment train to Hanoi ; 2-3 days for Hanoi before taking an organized 2day/overnight boat in Halong Bay.
    Back to Hanoi for a one hour flight to Luang Prabang with Lao Airlines offering the cheapest airfare.
    If you go to Halong, then you can skip Vang Vieng since the topography/karst formations are somewhat similar. Or skip Halong for VV.
    Vientiane is only worth 1 day given your limited time frame but if you skip VV, then you can fly between Luang Prabang and Vientiane and then fly VTE to Bangkok OR skip Vang Vieng AND Vientiane and just fly Luang Prabang to Bangkok for your flight home. Also, if using Siem Reap is an option as a roundtrip hub, then you could also fly Luang Prabang back to Siem Reap via Lao Airlines.
    It takes 6 hour by road between Luang prabang and Vang Vieng; 10 hours between Luang Prabang and Vientiane by road.

    #2 Posted: 21/4/2009 - 16:43

  • brucemoon

    Click here to learn more about brucemoon
    Joined Travelfish
    27th December, 2008
    Location Australia
    Posts: 1941
    Total reviews: 6

    Intrepid82

    Elsewhere on Travelfish Ive been constant in my observation that most short term travellers plan to do too much. And, all they ever really achieve is get to know the insides of transport vehicles.

    There is a very simple answer to your dilemma. Choose just ONE nation and plan to visit no more than 2 regions.

    While the appeal of the host of options (especially as suggested by Lonely Planet) sounds wonderful, in reality, you won't be enjoying yourself, or learning about the people/culture in the places you intend to visit, unless you take your time.

    Again, 3 weeks = ONLY ONE NATION!!

    cheers

    #3 Posted: 27/4/2009 - 14:27

  • DLuek

    TF writer
    Joined Travelfish
    19th June, 2008
    Location Thailand
    Posts: 871
    Total reviews: 14

    Hi,

    I would have to agree with Brucemoon here - unless - money is no object for you and you can afford to fly from place to place. If so, you can fly from HCMC to Siem Reap to Vientiane to Luang Prabang to Hanoi to HCMC or something like that. But, if you're planning on going overland, you'll literally be spending more than half your time in transport. 3 weeks is not a lot of time, and it's a big region.

    If I were you, I'd pick no more than 3 places that I really want to go and just do those 3. That way, even if the transport takes 2 days from one to the next, at least you would still have 5 days at the location of choice. Looking at your itinerary, I'm not too hot on Vientiane - it's kind of sleazy and not too much to do there.

    Good luck

    #4 Posted: 27/4/2009 - 21:28

  • Intrepid82

    Joined Travelfish
    21st April, 2009
    Posts: 33

    Thankyou for the advice!
    I guess I got a litle carried away in the excitement of planning a holiday, but I am now going to focus my time on Laos (BUT can not resist a visit to Siem Reap while I'm in the region!!)

    This website has been so great in helping me figure it all out!

    #5 Posted: 28/4/2009 - 05:26

  • brucemoon

    Click here to learn more about brucemoon
    Joined Travelfish
    27th December, 2008
    Location Australia
    Posts: 1941
    Total reviews: 6

    Intrepid82

    Great to see someone takes feedback seriously. Congratulations.

    To further the 'discussion'...

    First, which hub are you planning to fly into, and out of?

    Second, what is your intended focus?

    Third, why do you want to visit Siem Reap (ie. other than the Angkorian temples are there, what is it that appeals to you such that you're wanting to go there)?

    cheers

    #6 Posted: 28/4/2009 - 06:35

  • Intrepid82

    Joined Travelfish
    21st April, 2009
    Posts: 33

    I have always wanted to see Angkor Wat - I know in recent years tourism in Siem Reap has exploded, which is part of the reason I want to go now, before it is completely over run (that is if I am not already too late!). So that is the motivation to go to Siem Reap.
    The focus for me is to see the world heritage sites (Angkor Wat and Luang Prabanag, and PERHAPS if time permits Champasak) but I also want to see the natural beauty of Laos that I have read so much about. Laos also appeals as I am told it is not yet as touristy as other SE Asian countries and it is not too difficult to get "off the beaten track".
    I actually am not sure what hub I'll be flying in/out of - perhaps I will fly direct from Sydney to Siem Reap....no idea about the return route yet.
    I really do appreciate all the advice I've received here!
    :)

    #7 Posted: 28/4/2009 - 07:20

  • brucemoon

    Click here to learn more about brucemoon
    Joined Travelfish
    27th December, 2008
    Location Australia
    Posts: 1941
    Total reviews: 6

    Intrepid82

    Jetstar fly from Sydney to Singapore (via Darwin) or Bangkok. AirAsia flies from Melbourne of Gold Coast to Kuala Lumpur.

    I don't know when you plan to go, but AirAsia is currently having a 'special' with A$200 seats to KL. From KL they have many cheap flights to other SEA destinations. Go check it out.

    As a tourist destination, Siem Reap is YUK! However, one must go there to view the Angkorian temples. Near to Siem Reap is a largely overlooked place - Chong Kneas (on Tonle Sap). If you have any interest in environmental issues, check out Tonle Sap.

    Personally, in 3 weeks, I'd suggest you focus on Laos, and enjoy all that has to offer. Siem Reap will be such a contrast that I believe you'll probably regret not staying longer in Laos.

    I was at Luang Prabang a fortnight ago (for Laos New Year). Yes, it's a World Heritage site. Yes, it's VERY touristy. Yes, it's attractive. But, it is not really the 'laid back' Laos you hear about. Like most 'must see' destinations, the laid back locals have mostly been replaced with money focussed entrepreneurs.

    You write that you want to see "want to see the natural beauty of Laos". If so, then going to where every other tourist goes will not advantage you.

    If you look at Lonely Planet [Laos], you'll see that the natural beauty of Laos is in the far flung places.

    The forest of Nam Tha is beautiful. The villages in that region are basic, laid back, and fascinating (especially around Muang Sing and Vieng Phouka).

    What you could do is fly to Vientianne, bus it to Luang Prabang (via VV) and then bus it to Luang Nam Tha (as a base to go trekking, etc.).

    Alternatively, fly to Chiang Mai, overland to Chiang Khong, Huay Xai, then across to Luang Nam Tha and down to Luang Prabang (to then fly home).

    If you really want a 'taste' of fun, adventure, and a 'close up' of Loas, try the Gibbon Experience...

    Go check out http://www.gibbonx.org/ -

    look also at their 'community links for what others say [eg. http://realtravel.com/e-234008-huay_xai_entry-the_gibbon_experience]

    (also look at http://www.travelfish.org/feature/46).

    If you want trekking, go see...

    http://www.ecotourismlaos.com/activities/act_trekking.htm#Luang%20Namtha

    or

    http://www.luang-namtha.org/m_vpk/vpk_tourism.htm

    or

    http://www.luang-namtha.org/contact_us/contact_us.htm

    or

    http://www.greendiscoverylaos.com/ecotours/nt.html

    - - - - -

    Many tourists think of cities. Fewer think of outside cities.

    I've given you some options to consider.

    If you are a city person, then basing yourself in a couple of cities and touring in and around will be enjoyable. If you like to really 'get down into it', then the rural parts of Laos will definitely be where you should be headed.

    cheers

    #8 Posted: 28/4/2009 - 08:05

  • seagypsy

    Joined Travelfish
    5th February, 2009
    Posts: 136

    Intrepid
    I think a visit to Angkor /Siem Reap is still well worthwhile. Sure you've only got 3 weeks but 23-5 days for Angkor (3 day pass for Angkor + a day or two extra to explore more of Siem Reap) should suffice.
    And you have the option of 3 destinations in Australia to fly or start your trip, flying to Kuala Lumpur to connect with a flight to Siem Reap.
    You've also got the option of flying back to KL for your flight home to Australia by flying Vientiane to KL.
    While I think Bruce is well intentioned, I realize that some don't have the luxury of returning to Asia regularly and must make do with whatlittle time one has. So, if you've only got 3 weeks, you can still get a good taste of Cambodia and Laos.
    One good option is to fly up from Vientiane to Luang Namtha and work your way down to Luang Prabang and back down to Vientiane. I'd recommend going from Namtha to Oudomxai and transfer to a songthaew bus for Muang Khua to take a boat journey down the very scenic Nam Ou to Moung Ngoi and/or Nong Khiaw.
    And yes, Luang Prabang has gotten quite touristy but it's still a nice town to visit if you like temples. Better yet if you visit off peak season.
    BTW, I would highly recommend skipping Champasak and Wat Phu for this trip because you'll already have gotten a good dose of Khmer architecture while in Angkor.

    #9 Posted: 28/4/2009 - 12:06

  • brucemoon

    Click here to learn more about brucemoon
    Joined Travelfish
    27th December, 2008
    Location Australia
    Posts: 1941
    Total reviews: 6

    seagypsy

    I've written elsewhere that I suspect you have a chip on your shoulder...

    Like many, 'Intrepid82' had begun by trying to do too much. The inevitable result is that much time would be spent inside transport vehicles, and too little time 'on the ground' enjoying the culture (etc.) of the places.

    Yes, it is true that I have been fortunate to have visited Asia on several occasions. But, just because of my fortunate position does not mean that I am somehow wrongly skewed in offering advice.

    After talking to too many tourists along the way in my travels, I am convinced that too many try and do too much. And, as a result, miss the very essence of what they wanted to experience.

    Maybe you are one of those who travel too much and experience too little.

    I wrote above to Intrepid82 ...

    "As a tourist destination, Siem Reap is YUK! However, one must go there to view the Angkorian temples. Near to Siem Reap is a largely overlooked place - Chong Kneas (on Tonle Sap). If you have any interest in environmental issues, check out Tonle Sap."

    "Personally, in 3 weeks, I'd suggest you focus on Laos, and enjoy all that has to offer. Siem Reap will be such a contrast that I believe you'll probably regret not staying longer in Laos."

    The latter paragraph is important. I've spoken to so many tourists that wished they'd stayed in one focus area, rather than move to different areas and regret having to deal with the cultural contrast.

    The more I speak to people on this subject, the more THEY convince me that 'doing' one cultural area per visit is the 'way to go'. Put simply, 'do Thailand', go home to work etc., go back and 'do another country', etc.!!

    It is important to recognise that ALL humans compare their current experiences with their own values and/or past experiences. Conducting a holiday in a fashion whereby there is a 3 way comparison inevitably means that some attributes are favoured over others. For this reason, and especially for western oriented people, it appears preferable that the holiday/experience is limited (where ever possible) to a two way contrast.

    Unlike you, I offered website addresses that Intrepid82 might like to explore that focussed on places other than cities.

    The plain fact is that it is Intrepid82's holiday, not mine. Intrepid82 will make up his/her own mind. All I am doing is trying to limit the enthusiasm to travel to an untold number of places so that he/she can broaden their experiential journey.

    - - - -

    You suggest travelling from Xay to Muang Khua and down to LP. That is 3 days travel. Intrepid82 may not have that time luxury!!!

    Intrepid82 (or other readers) may like to look at my observations of this trip:

    http://www.travelfish.org/board/post/laos/6149_travelling-the-nam-ou---lonely-planet-is-again-wrong-

    At the end of the day, my observations are intended to assist. I trust that you might focus on helping, rather than criticising others!

    Cheers

    #10 Posted: 28/4/2009 - 17:32

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  • seagypsy

    Joined Travelfish
    5th February, 2009
    Posts: 136

    Bruce,
    Well you clearly are suffering from a superiority complex on top of a patronizing attitude towards others, posting to Intrepid:
    Brucemoon: ’ Great to see someone takes feedback seriously. Congratulations”.

    My, my, it comes across as if you’re really full of yourself!

    Although you claim to only try and assist others, it’s your mantra criticism in a number of posts that they are trying to do too much that makes you come across as a travel-Nazi, dictating in one line:
    Brucemoon: “Again, 3 weeks = ONLY ONE NATION!!”.
    Or in another post:
    “3 days HaNoi, including HaLong - stupid!”
    OR:
    Bruce: “Oh, and another thing, plan NOT to eat western food while in Asia. NO hamburgers, NO western breakfast, NO shakes, NO fries, NO junk food. Only then might you get a feeling for their way of doing things.”
    _________________________________________

    The irony of your dictates (where’s the ‘soup Nazi?) is that I know where you’re coming from because I’ve been blessed to be able to travel to SEA nearly yearly for well over and decade and a half and tend to travel focusing on one country at a time, and while for the most part I also think it is better to slow down and not cover too much territory or destinations, BUT WHEN answering posters queries, I read their questions carefully and try to answer their question and give them direction within the parameters of what they want to do and not what I want them to do or see. I try to respect that for some travelers, and as I posted before above in post #9, and addressed to Intrepid and not you,:
    “I realize that some don't have the luxury of returning to Asia regularly and must make do with what little time one has.”

    Intepid had just posted in #7: “I have always wanted to see Angkor Wat - I know in recent years tourism in Siem Reap has exploded, which is part of the reason I want to go now, before it is completely over run (that is if I am not already too late!). So that is the motivation to go to Siem Reap.
    The focus for me is to see the world heritage sites (Angkor Wat and Luang Prabanag, and PERHAPS if time permits Champasak) but I also want to see the natural beauty of Laos that I have read so much about. Laos also appeals as I am told it is not yet as touristy as other SE Asian countries and it is not too difficult to get "off the beaten track".

    But for you to rejoinder with: “As a tourist destination, Siem Reap is YUK! However, one must go there to view the Angkorian temples.” ,
    is, IMO, just inappropriate and very insensitive. This is her trip and she’s got her heart set on visiting Angkor.
    I even prefaced that comment and wanted to show you respect by stating: “While I think Bruce is well intentioned,” but it seems you’ve taken it the wrong way and am now personalizing your attacks with comments of ‘stupid’ and ‘inane’. So if you want to personalize it, then I feel that I’ve a right to defend myself from your personalized attacks.

    Sometimes your comments are very contradictory. In one of your parting shots you state:
    “You suggest travelling from Xay,. . .
    [I’d suggested flying up from Vientiane to Luang Namtha and transiting to Oudomxai]
    “. . .to Muang Khua and down to LP. That is 3 days travel. Intrepid82 may not have that time luxury!!!
    So you’re going to criticize me for not making suggestions of smaller places and criticize me for suggesting less trodden places in transit down to Luang Prabang??

    Perhaps you should take your own advice: “I trust that you might focus on helping, rather than criticising others!”
    And part of helping others on the forum is to respect what they want do and not what you want them to do or what you think they should do. Otherwise you’re coming across as a travel-nazi, dictating to others how they should travel.

    #11 Posted: 29/4/2009 - 14:41

  • brucemoon

    Click here to learn more about brucemoon
    Joined Travelfish
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    Location Australia
    Posts: 1941
    Total reviews: 6

    seagypsy

    Your diatribe is really helping others, NOT

    Get a life!

    #12 Posted: 30/4/2009 - 05:37

  • seagypsy

    Joined Travelfish
    5th February, 2009
    Posts: 136

    Actually have a very good and happy life, thank you very much!
    Whereas, your immature rants are stunningly arrogant and it's readily apparent that you're a unhappy person.
    Who are you to make an insulting comment to a recent poster asking for advice on their upcoming trip by posting:
    "Why is it that people doing their travel itineraries can be so stupid."
    http://www.travelfish.org/board/post/indochina/6097_3-week-itinerary-needed-for-thailand-on-a-small-budget-

    Seems you've really got a superiority complex to mask your inferior shortcomings.

    #13 Posted: 30/4/2009 - 07:33

  • Seba

    Joined Travelfish
    28th April, 2009
    Posts: 54

    Brucemoon,

    whilst I think you have a point, i.e. people tend to plan too much and it might be better to concentrate on a smaller region as to maximise the cultural interaction/experience, I think you should be aware that not everyone has the privilige to travel around the globe every year again to visit different areas. Therefore if you're coming e.g. from Europe and say you have 1month paid holidays/year, it might actually be a stupid idea to just spend that month in say a very limited area of Thailand. No, you'll rather wanna see parts of Cambodia, Laos, and Vietnam as well, as to have as many different experiences as possible. The year after you'll probably wanna see another part of the world, so it's not that strange that people tend to plan alot, holiday time is precious for most people...

    In the end it's always a trade-off between spending time in transportation vehicles and seeing as many things as possible... Some people do plan too much so that they spend too little time actually seeing and experiencing things, so then you're right.. but on the other hand saying that you HAVE TO concentrate on one small area (especially with a cerain arrogance), no matter what, is at least equally stupid.
    If you're coming from Australia and visisting Europe, I wouldn't want you to be spending 2 months in Belgium only, even though it would be perfectly possible, it would actually be most utterly stupid...

    #14 Posted: 1/5/2009 - 20:50

  • brucemoon

    Click here to learn more about brucemoon
    Joined Travelfish
    27th December, 2008
    Location Australia
    Posts: 1941
    Total reviews: 6

    Seba

    I note that in principle you agree with my view.

    Yes, I'm fortunate to have retired and have the capacity to visit places often.

    But, there is an underlying 'reason' why I advance the view that people should try to limit the distance traversed in their travel experiences.

    I long ago learnt that humans have a certain level of tolerance for taking in facts / ideas / etc. I am not alone in this view, psychology has several related theories on this topic.

    When too many ideas / facts / etc., occur, humans 'switch off'. That is, they take in only that which their minds can address / process.

    So, by scooting around the countryside at a breakneck speed, hoping to 'engage' with locals (or whatever 'floats one's boat'), and at the same time deal with transport (and the 'issues' that accompany transportation), accommodation, language (not only engaging with non-English speaking people, but also getting one's own basic needs met), icon viewing, etc., etc., it would be a very brave person that could say they've '*experienced*' a place.

    Rather, the person could properly only say they've '*been*' to the nominated places.

    As an example, I've met people who have spent 2 nights and one full day in HaNoi. They say they've '*experienced*' HaNoi! In fact, they arrived at the airport, managed to get to their pre-booked accommodation by late afternoon, had a full day, then got themselves to the airport the next day. There is no doubt the person would have experienced HaNoi traffic (from both inside and outside a vehicle). Most probably, the person stayed in the 'Old Quarter' with other foreign tourists and may have gone for a meal either with them, or one of the places recommended by Lonely Planet (or similar) and ate food with foreigner's in a place oriented to foreigner's. They may have tried a little shopping, again at shops around their accommodation: which are oriented to foreigners. On the full day, they may have taken a tour: again with foreigners. Or, they may have visited 'static' places like museums, etc., which are often visited more by foreigners than locals.

    Did this person 'engage' with locals? I suggest not. Rather, they engaged with foreigners while in HaNoi.

    As for attempting local language...!!! As for talking to locals - NOT those trying to sell something to them (Vietnamese vendors will say anything to get a sale) - to get an understanding HaNoi or Vietnamese culture from a local person's perspective...!!!

    Clearly, the hassles associated with travel to HaNoi airport and then the Old Quarter, orientating oneself to eat, not get lost, etc., and maybe see a few sights is extremely taxing. That it is done in a foreign city, without English as the common language makes it even more so.

    Yes, the person has been there! But have they understood any cultural issues that the HaNoi local experiences? Even if they were superman, would it have been possible to 'engage' with a (non-vendor) local?

    When this person flew out of HaNoi airport, could they understand the cultural differences between HaNoi Vietnam and Saigon Vietnam, between the Vietnamese culture and their own, etc.

    I write all this because when travelling I'm so often reminded by Anglo-Saxon travellers that they haven't a clue on the cultural differences between Asians and westerners - and they are actually in Asia when I encounter them!!!

    My observation is that these people are racing through Asia at breakneck speed trying to 'see' everything, and end up not experiencing anything other than the insides of a transport vehicle or bedroom.

    You ask about an Australian visiting Europe...

    In October I fly from Australia to London. In the 28 days before I depart for Australia, I will only visit Britain.

    I know that Ireland, and Europe beckon. And, I'd love to have the time to spend in those various places. However...

    I want to '*experience*' Britain, not just speedily see icons because they are there. Or, because I may never return to Britain/Europe.

    Cheers

    #15 Posted: 2/5/2009 - 04:38

  • Seba

    Joined Travelfish
    28th April, 2009
    Posts: 54

    you do have a point, but you just seem to forget that people wanting who plan to visit al lot of different palces on their trip actually may also have one. I.e., you for instance clearly focus on "cultural interaction/experience", but who says this needs to be the main reason for visisting a certain country? For myself for instance, the thing that pretty much interests me the most when travelling to e.g. SE-Asia is the environmental beauty there, which doesn't necessarrily mean I need to be talking to and eating rice every day with some locals.

    Therefore, as I said, I don't think it's a question of sticking to a very small area with maximum cultural interaction/experience OR visisting lots of different areas, but I'd rather think it's a trade-off in which a good balance can be found. Therefore I think people just travelling around are wrong, so there I agree with you, but the other extreme (sticking to one small area) has disadvantages and an opportunity cost as well...

    #16 Posted: 2/5/2009 - 09:54

  • brucemoon

    Click here to learn more about brucemoon
    Joined Travelfish
    27th December, 2008
    Location Australia
    Posts: 1941
    Total reviews: 6

    Seba

    You make a very good point regarding alternatives to 'cultural interaction/experience' as a means for a journey. And, I agree with you.

    Recently, we did a 9 hour bus trip from Luang Nam Tha to Luang Prabang. There really wasn't an alternative for us.

    My wife and I agreed that after a very short while, we really couldn't manage to take in the scenery as the bus flew past it. The scenery became just a blur.

    We wanted to exit from Laos to Vietnam (to Dien Bien Phu) and had options of bus or river transport for much of the way.

    We decided on river travel. While it cost some 4 times as much, and took more than twice as long, at least we could see (and digest) the scenery.

    So, even seeking to see scenery means it is best slower than faster.

    Cheers

    #17 Posted: 2/5/2009 - 10:13

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