Laos forum

Laos needs hydro power in order to export it and hopefully eventually build enough of a base to generate some manufacturing jobs. Laos desperately needs to earn foreign currency, and the dribble brought in from cheap backpackers doesn't cut it. Sometimes I think people would like to see the Laoso stay poor so they can keep a nice cheap place for them to play.

"I've also heard about the environmentalist who 'disappeared' recently. I can see he would have had a lot to talk about because there are parts of Laos that look very depressing."

Laos is a single party state which does not brook dissent. Environmentalists like to challenge authoritarian decisions concerning the environment - a good way to end up dead in Laos.

Laos won't become super rich from this. But they will benefit. Eveyrone who is a fan of sustainable development (or better yet, telling others how to spend their investment money) and the ones not doing the investment. It's easy to tell other people how they should spend their money.
The Chinese are the ones who are putting up the cash, so they get a vote on how it's spent. To date, Mekong development and hydro power has not had a major effect on the Mekong. It's flows remain pretty much unchanged. Meanwhile Laos HAS (IS) earning real cash selling power to Thailand (like the power for my house).

Myanmar has blocked the building of at least one of these Chinese dams, and ASEAN economic community is being formed partially to make a strong counter-Chinese presence in SE Asia. Many people in Myr/Laos/Thai/Vietnam are weary of China's growing influence in the region, as they are not widely seen as good stewards or business partners.

The Chinese bring the money. By definition, that's a good business partner. Whether or not the socio-politial system in Laos will allow serious benefits to your average Lao Joe remains to be seen. But what we do know is that without foreign investment, Laos is screwed. It's land locked, not good growing country, not well educated - nothing going for it to make money. Money is necessary if you want things like medical care.

Average folks remaining poor while the rich get richer isn't exactly unique to Laos. It happens everywhere. But I have noticed in my travels to Laos, which span from my first visit in 1993 to my last trip in 2010, that the average person on the street seems to have a bit more material wealth to show for their trouble. Better transporation. Better clothes. Better food. I'd say that things have improved, at least from my casual observations.

It also isn't unusual for prices to be higher for imported goods than for domestic goods. The only time that isn't true is if the producing country is subsidizing exports or levying high taxes on domestic consumption. So I'd expect prices to be higher for Thai goods in Laos than for Thai goods in Thailand.

"They're a good business partner for the people that are bribe." Evidence please or this this just another meaningless post?
" Also Laos doesn't seem like a "nice cheap place to play" What is this supposed to mean?

Where is the evidence - who, where and whom?

Just a question STC; is English your native tongue?

Where is the evidence - who, where and whom?
Just a question STC; is English your native tongue?

Chinese do very well in countries that have bribery heavily entrenched in systems of governance - as in Africa, SE Asia, and it seems like Nepal as well. US/European companies are typically subject to home prosecution if they do this. There is backlash in Myanmar as the people there do not want to become the next Tibet, like slaves to China. This sentiment will probably grow in Laos as well. A couple of more links for the OP:

http://www.rfa.org/english/news/laos/bribesincreasing-01272010151246.html
http://www.economist.com/blogs/banyan/2012/07/mekong-river

"If English isn't STC's native tongue, he's very good with it as a second language."

STC is a highly intellectual robot trained to fool humans into thinking it's a person.

Anyone know how the dam on the Nam Ou between Luang Prabang and Nong Kiaw is coming along?

"STC is a highly intellectual robot." leave out two adjectives.

"I was up in north Laos recently. I was a little dismayed by the Chinese influence in terms of crappy Chinese style buildings"

As oppossed to crappy Laos-style buildings?

"Chinese signs and a feeling that Laos is China's lapdog"

Laos is Vietnam's lapdog. And has been for some time. But it will take investment from wherever it can get it - especially a nice communist neighbor.

"How much Chinese investment will improve the common peoples' lives? Selling the energy from the dams to China and Thailand will probably only line the pockets of the ruling elite."

The ruling elite spend money within the economy. Thus it has a benefit to everyone. Maybe not as much as some would like - but hey, it's a single party state.

"I didn't like seeing the Western outfits getting the bulk of the business, while the locals with their simple shops and no internet were struggling. "

Well they could throw out all the foreigners. That approach has historically worked so well in other economies. Of course, then the backpackers couldn't go to see the unstained Laos environment because they're part of the stain that's been banned.

"Was a good trip but more planning or suffering is required to escape the masses. Perhaps the south next time."

You want to escape the masses, go where they aren't. I can give you a suggestion right now - Saimun, Yasothon province, Thailand. I would be surprised if you met a single non-Thai person there for however long you chose to stay (within reason). If you go to places that are "Amazing", well then you will have to deal with geriatric Germans. Or you could go to Chaiyapum provine in Thailand. There are some impressive views, nice resorts, pretty quiet and a huge national forest. For reasons I haven't figured out, it's on nobodies must see list.

"The Lao ones got style."

Hmmm must be different from the multitude of Laos shacks I've seen that look like - shacks.

"Except when they go on extravagant shopping trips to Tokyo or Paris..."

Sure, but what they do with most of the money is what most people do with a lot of money - they invest it into something that makes more money and usually puts people to work. You can't have a middle class without rich. And without rich, poor are poorer still. Something to consider. I'm not a fan of the Laos socio-political system, but let's be honest. Chinese investment will benefit most - some more, some less. But most will reap some benefit.

"But you say in your review of Yasothon province that it's boring and the only club has a mostly homosexual clientele!"

And Saimun is 30 km from even that - although it does have two little karaoke bars with the normal naughty girls associated. The restaraunts are mostly awful (although there is one I like). And there's beyond that nothing to do. Which is why no tourists go there.

Rufus, do you detect hypberbole?

"Also the place was full of Vietnamese."

They won the war in Laos.

We don't know why you bothered to post rubbish. Are you practising to be another squarethecircle?

Perhaps you should warn Squarethecircle and the above poster as well, Somtam? After all, neither of them print any valuable information about Lao ever, unlike Mac or I.

Most of the new development avoids any type of oversight by being financed by private Chinese companies. No World Bank or Asian Development Fund environmental impact statements. They learned that lesson from Nam Thuan II. It's going on throughout the country and far from leading to development and a higher standard of living it's impoverishing the citizenry. Thousands are forcibly relocated with no compensation whatsoever.

Private companies build new roads by being given hundreds of meters of road on either side which they resell after construction. The original inhabitants are moved and given compensation at a fraction of a percent of the original value. Bribes are very cheap in Laos. The Lao government is perhaps given a small share of the profit after the original cost of dam construction is paid off some time in the far distant future. The electricity doesn't go to Laos. People in Laos are still without electricity.

It's happening all over the country, and everyone knows it. It's a mess and there's no fixing it.

People need to earn respect. Neither you nor STC have done so.

Posted from within Vietnam.

In an attempt to increase the quality of the posts on Travelfish, I'd like to see a weekly/monthly quota put on members of this site, this might stop bored expats using Travelfish as a social outlet or as a form of entertainment.

"does a good job regulating the site."

There's next to no moderation/regulation of the site. Hence the complaints.

"But Stuart has to walk a fine line between keeping it civil, and inhibiting peoples right to express themselves while maintaining a large number of hits required to keep advertisers happy and himself in operation."

Rants and insults are in fact allowed in many threads on this site, and I fail to see how this keeps the site in operation. You likewise have excused similar posts and rants. Actually this is the only site I post on that allows this sort of behavior. There's nothing civil about it and it's a bit disappointing since it seems like the site could become viable competition against LP or similar projects. In fact, if this is how the site is run, I refuse to make free contributions and in fact will make my "vote" by instead contributing to the competition.

"It is not the critic that counts. Stuart has been running a successful site for a long time using this current methodology. Nobody forces you to contribute."

And the sexpats win.

Just to chime in here before I lock this thread off, there is actually quite a bit of moderation, mostly either of blatant spam, commercial posts or reported posts. I do though try to keep moderation to a minimum as I have other things I need to do with my time.

The problem with a post like this is that is starts off interesting and relevant to Laos then goes sideways. That leaves me with three main options:

a) Check in every day and moderate anything that is not exactly on topic
b) Delete the post
c) Check in occasionally and tell people to calm down (as I did above) and which resulted in Rufus toning it down

I generally go with the latter as I have only so many hours in the day and I work on the assumption that you're all grown up enough to get on with it -- of course that isn't always the case, but generally, it works.

I'll be the first to agree this isn't a perfect solution, but it is the best I can manage for now.

As for there being rants and abuse across the forum, I don't feel that is the case but, there is a little red X at the end (lower right) of every post that allows people pit off by particular posts to report them, so please feel free to do so. Very very very few posts are actually reported.

At a glance, the vast majority of the posts that are on the front page at the moment have had contributions by neither Madmac or Rufus so I'm not quite sure how they're "killing the site's utility", but each is entitled to their opinion.

Lastly I don't really get the sexpat line -- as regular members would know, that scene is not a conversation topic on Travelfish -- they're are plenty of other sites focussed on that niche.

Anyways, I'll leave it at that. If you've got ideas on how the working of the forum could be improved, feel free to start a new thread in the About Us section -- happy to discuss it in more detail there.

Cheers & enjoy your Sunday all.