Laos forum

The Nam Fa

There's a river drainage in the north west called the Nam Fa. Below Veing Phuka the Nam Fa is not navagatable by any sort of boat. The river finaly empties into the Mekong about 100 km further. To the south the area is bounded by the road to Huay Xai and up north the road From Muang Sing to Xiengkok. Currently no motorcycles can enter, even during the dry season.

I've taken long walks in the area three times. During my last walk some villagers told me treks from Vieng Phuka had been to their village before, so I know I wasn't far from a road accessible from Veing Phuka. I've always walked and hired a guide from Muang Long to the north.

The area is vast and has never been cut. Mountains and rivers lead to more mountains and rivers. There are many villages, and always the villagers tell of another village a day's walk away. I've gotten lost and found myself tens of kilometers away from where I thought I was.

The people are mostly Akha. They often light their houses with batteries and LED lights from China. The rice crop has been good for a couple of seasons, I saw full granaries and fat babies. All the men hunt and the forest is plentiful with game. They hunt with sling shot, cross bow, long muzzle loading rifles, and dogs. All animals fear the dogs of the Akha.

To access go to the town of Muang Long and ask around for the tourism office. Expect it to take some time to get there, to make arrangements, and to walk. No they don't make reservations.

The good part is that I doubt this area is unique in Laos, I'm sure there are many such roadless areas even more remote. I just happened to find this one.

Don Khone island - sitting on the floating bunglows at Salaphae... sipping Lao Lao with my wife, perfect.

Favourite place in Lao? Yes...I agree with B-Moon here. Favourite place in Lao is --- Lao.

And I'm greatly looking forward to returning.

(But - PS - Luang Prabang was terribly appealing ;)

But, MADMAC, this post isn't about you. It's about LAOS!

Cheers

Funny madmac, I infinitely prefer Laos to Thailand. Thailand is a mess at the moment.

I don't want to get off track either, but you are talking about:
An illegal Government that has effectively disenfranchised a good portion of the electorate.
A ruling elite who permanently wants to disenfranchise a good part of the electorate because it doesn't like the election results.
A country whose foreign minister is a clown.
Extreme dissatisfaction between different groups in society almost resulting in a civil war.
An economy that is a declining rapidly in comparison to other countries in the region.
A PM who is a puppet and does not have the support of the majority.
A country whose military has more generals than any other country in the world, and I don't mean per capita.
A country who is using medieval lese majeste laws to keep dissent under wraps and in doing so is making itself an international laughing stock.

You think "its alright"????
Btw I used to live in Thailand. The Lao government, despite being communist, is far more sensible in its approach that the present Thai circus performers.

I suggest you read some of Giles' Ungpakorn's articles.

Nac, regarding point a). You are probably not aware that the Lao govt has recently passed legislation which will allow foreigners to become "honorary citizenz". This means that you qualify for a Laos passport without giving up your own citizenship, you can buy and own land in your own name, obviously you can stay as long as you want. They are currently working out the details to ensure foreigners don't come in and buy heaps of land, thus pricing the locals out of the market. this is far more liberal than anything Thailand has ever had.

Rufus
I guess you are unaware the in Thailand you can become a Thai citizen. A full Thai citizen with all rights pertaining thereto. And can still retain your previous citizenship. It isn't easy, but one of the expats here has done it... she is now a judge in Thai family court here and a highly respected member of the community.

It's Rufus' fault...

OK, only kidding. Hey, they say a conversation that drifts is a healthy conversation.

OK favorite place in Laos... you forced me into it.

Dao Cafe, only because I have a great story from the place (and I like the beer there).

Dao Cafe is in downtown Savanakhet, in a trashy square with an atrophying Catholic Church at one end. Most of the buildings are falling apart, and the middle of the square, which should have grass and tress, has concrete - which the kids like to play soccer (football for my European friends) on. Dao cafe is obscenely expensive by Savanakhet standards and expect to drop at least 300 baht a meal there - but the food is excellent to go with the excellent imported beer, and the building itself was renovated to perfection - thus standing out in this dilapitated square.

Anyway, I order a club sandwidch and a beer and am sitting on the terrace outside watching the kids play soccer. Along comes my club sandwidch, and since I am a dwarf, I can never eat it all. It's four halves, not two, plus a big heeping of fries. I just start eating and this utterly filthy beggar comes along, drops to his knees, practically kisses my feet (which I hate) and starts begging. Poor bastard looked like he hadn't eaten in a week and hadn't visited a dentist ever. A shower wasn't in the offing either. Anyway, the waiter goes to shoo him away and I intervene and offer him a seat at my table. I then asked for another beer and an extra plate - the waiter ain't figured anything out yet - and out comes the beer and I promptly fork half of my food onto the new plate and give it to the filthy beggar. With a big ol smile he digs in, starts drinking the beer and chowing down. The waiters were intensely uncomfortable, but we were paying customers (and I go there every time I'm in Savankhet) so what to do? Grin and bear it. We finished the sandwidch (tried to have conversation, but his Thai sucked, and my Laos is all but nonexistent, so it wasn't much of a discussion) and ordered some desert. It was hillarious (cost me about 750 baht too!!!) Best meal I ever had in Laos.

So Dao Cafe - my favorite place in Laos.

Great story, MadMac! And bravo for sharing.......

Somsai

"The Lao government discourage begging or giving to beggars as it degrades their society, instead give to a local NGO or a village elder. It was exactly for these cultural reasons that you recieved disapproving looks Madmac. If you are at all atuned to Lao/Tai social norms you know how generaly accepting they are of all kinds of behaviour. Why not take a hint."

Well, as in most of it's other endeavors, the Laos government isn't doing a very good job of reigning in beggars. They're everywhere in Savankhet. Perhaps because they have a socio-economic system that wouldn't pass muster with a tribe of barbary apes. This guy was hungary, he wasn't nurting anybody, and if the Laos government or "culture" doesn't approve, frankly I don't give a shit.

Furthermore, maybe you are unaware of this human trait, but beggars and homeless make people uncomfortable everywhere in the world - this isn't a Laos or Thai cultural trait, it's a universal one. Try eating at a posh restaraunt in New York and invite a bum to your table - the wait staff will be equally uncomfortable. Sometimes making people uncomfortable is OK. This was one of those times.

Also, I wouldn't give to an NGO if you paid me. They spend too much money on overhead, and village elders will steal it as often as not - there's no audit trail there. When it comes to money, Laotians (perhaps because they don't have much) often can't help themselves. Same for Thais. Just the way it is. Ask my wife. I give direct aid to people I know who need it. In my wife's village and here in Muk there are plentuy of those. I won't give money to beggars on the street because many are controlled by gangs, but I will give them food.

"They also discourage sex tourism and a long laundry list of other social ills. They are not looking for boorish drunks. shoes in the house, feet on the table, pats on the head, unsolicited photos, and so on."

But they are looking for money. And so the boorish drunks of VV are entertained, the hookers are brought in from Vietnam to entertain non-Laos / Thais, and they even allow cheapskate backpackers to roam around and speak to them in a condescending manner. Guess what? If you want tourist dollars, you have to pretty much put up with what goes with them. This is a universal truth, not just one pertaining to Laos. The ony way to get rid of (or minimize - you don't get rid of) the boorish behavior is to close your society to tourism (North Korean style) or raise the quality of life to such a point that it's too expensive to be boorish (central Europe). The boors have to go somewhere, don't they?

"There's a very polite list of suggested "dos and don'ts" put out by the tourism authority that bears reading."

I wonder if "Don't talk about politics because we are an oligarchy running this place and don't want anyone to upset the applecart" is on it?

Regardless, there isn't much put out by the Laotian government that I would respect, since I don't respect that government. In 1975, the wrong side won.

"What about a favorite place story that actually talks about,,, a place."

Dao Cafe is a place.

Hey, rufus

I did some weeks ago, and I think SomTam nearly died (thinking of a potential jail term). His 'solution' was to censor. Mmmm!!!!

MADMAC

I can see you are passionate about your views, but may I suggest Travelfish is NOT the place for great long exhortations about the culture / politics / administration of the region. Some, yes, but...

Cheers

I think its fair enough for Somtam to censor it, Bruce, even though we may not like it. A lot of sites are being monitored.

Just to keep Archmichael happy - favourite places? My backyard.

The censoring was in relation to comments that were posted about the Thai Royal family -- off the top of my head I can't think of another topic (aside from spam and solicitations) where I've censored/deleted text -- believe me I have better things to do with my time.

I travel to Thailand frequently and have no interest in being arrested. As the site owner, I'm readily identifiable, while members who post material on Travelfish are protected by an anonymous username.

I continued this discussion in the politics and culture section - or should I say I reforumlated it. Think it would be worth discussing how we respond when local culture and mores conflict with our own.

MadMac:

I think it's a great idea to have a thread (pan-Southeast Asia) regarding "how we respond when local culture and mores conflict with our own." This is an issue that is worldwide, really.

Related to this is the matter of traveling to countries whose political system or regime is non-democratic, repressive, etc. Not that I have avoided such places, obviously (Lao, Viet Nam, Spain under Franco, Eastern Europe before the wall came down, and so on). But, many are concerned about seeing/experiencing these places balanced against tangentally supporting the regime. Perhaps a good topic.

Ah.....very good!

BigRoss

A rifle is called that because the inside of the barrel is, well, rifled...

When weapons manufacturers recognised that if they could reduce the by-pass gases from the exploding (then) gunpowder (later cordite, and now nitrocellulose), they tried all sorts of methods to make the projectile (bullet) as close fitting to the (inside) bore as possible. But, a small amount of gas needs to by-pass the projectile to ensure correct range. They found that by making the projectile turn as it left the muzzle, it also had a far greater propensity to actually hit the intended target. So, by making the bore with slight grooves in helical fashion along the bore, the projectile is both moving forward and rotating at the same time.

The length of the bore also had much to do with the relative amount of gunpowder available to be used. As gunpowder was expensive, and the capacity to produce projectiles that fit snugly in the bore wasn't then altogether good, manufacturers found that having a long bore assisted in getting the projectile to hit to aimed for spot. Many (usually cheap) long bore weapons did not also have a rifled bore.

A gun is different in that it does not have rifling.

Some guns rely on multiple projectile components to 'occupy' the bore while being shot. These are commonly called shotguns.

- - -

The animals to which you refer might best be identified if you go to:

http://www.ecologyasia.com/verts/mammals.htm

- - -

A few months ago, I encountered a European lady who had done her doctorate on the dietary nutrition of ethnic Lao.

She was saying that traditionally, ethnic (ie hilltribe) communities never ate buffalo (its a working animal), reserved pig for festivals, had some chicken (but only when there were an overabundance as the eggs were more important), and so they tended to use the (then) forest fauna as their source of protein. With the rapid denudation of forests to generate short term profit for the regional elite, coupled to the massive influx of military weapons during the 'independence movement' of the 1970's, access to and availability of forest fauna rapidly diminished. Now, the ethnic communities were being denied that source of protein. In the main, they have resorted to using field rodents.

As an aside, the Doctor also said that prior to the nationalisation of Laos, ethnic communities in dryland grain areas grew a variety of grains: millet, various rices, rye, etc. She indicated that the essential oils from the variety of grains (other than rice) served well the bodily needs for oil and micronutrients.

Her observations are important. She has consistently found that marginalised ethnic communities are malnourished, bone density structures are reducing, developmental growth patterns compromised, and the propensity to address disease diminishing rapidly.

She was adamant that the lack of cash income as a consequence of poppy destruction, coupled to a loss of wild fauna, means that without long term financial aid, these groups will probably slowly starve or be forced to migrate to cities (further compounding the problem of polarised wealth distribution in the region).

So much for 'progress'.

Cheers

To get pack to the original question ... Luang Prabang. Sure, it's the easy answer, but it's also the honest one. I was there for 6 days and that wasn't enough time. I want to go back. Preferably tomorrow.

#39: mousedeer & palm civet (toddycat) eaten in SEAsia, though i haven't tried...parents' generation ate up almost all of what my country has of them.

Narong
The admin created a new part of the forum just for us "wiseguys" to discuss those topics so annoying. So no worries mate.

Remember, you are as free to criticize my country (everyone else does) as I do yours. And I actually like Thailand a lot. If I didn't, I wouldn't live here.

Way off on a tangent here -- if you've something to add about what you consider to be great places in Laos, then please do, but otherwise -- you know where it belongs! Culture & politics branch

Thanks

one of my favourite places in Laos...is a window seat on an ordinary bus during good weather. on the side of the bus that will get the best views of passing mountain scenery, & near the front of the bus. on 20-seater buses, one of the single passenger seats at the front. with a window that isn't stuck, so that it can be opened for photos to be taken, food to come in, people to crawl out when it's really crowded, & vomit to fly out (not mine, am immune to motion sickness)...& closed when huge trucks roar by on dusty roads. with an adequate supply of plastic bags for abovementioned vomit. with a good driver & entertaining bus crew + passengers who take care of one another & share food & water & stories & their wicked sense of Lao humour. with my Lao-Eng/Eng-Lao dictionary so that i can learn new stuff from all the interesting people. & ideally, a bus that pulls into a bus station that hasn't been shifted kilometres out of town :P

Big Ross at #39 I'll start another thread, this one veered far off favorite places. sorry for slow reply, don't read forums often.

my favourite place in laos is tat kruang si waterfall near luang prbang, but the best is you find your own favourite place, people are all different... have fun in asia

"Xam Tai in HOuaphon Province."

Still, how's the nightlife?

I live on the border of Laos. Kind of hard to stay very far away.

You make it sound as if nightlife is some sort of aberrational behavior.

It's the simplicity of life there that prevents me from going very often. Different strokes for different folks.

But I am hoping that somewhere in Laos there is some decent nightlife that's as yet been undiscovered. Probably not.

I only joined this forum today, but have been visiting Laos for 12 years now, even lived there for a few years.

I travelled in some of the area that Somchai mentioned, near Muang Long and north of Vieng Poukha, the Akha village of Ban Thong Lat which at that stage (2007) was as far as the road went.
http://www.pbase.com/kees5/image/125645375

On the way there, and interesting Hmong village, Ban Tha Luang.
http://www.pbase.com/kees5/hmong

In Muang long i had the privilege of attending an ordination of two young men as priests in the Lanten village of Ban Nam An. Lanten (Yao Mun) practice Taoism.
http://www.pbase.com/kees5/lantien_ceremonies


Bruce >A few months ago, I encountered a European lady who had done her doctorate on the dietary nutrition of ethnic Lao. <
Can you give me a reference to her or her thesis? We are working on Northern Lao cookbook, and would be interested in reading it.

@triplinky, can you please name a few places which are must to visit?

Luang Prabang Cruises one of the best way to enjoy Laos tour.

Casey,
Hey, again, it was great to meet you. Feel free to come by again anytime.

One of a very nice days in Laos included a trip to ruins of Wat Tomo near Champasak . We enterded through a "back door", so there wasn't anyone, except the red-black insects all over the ground and old stones and jungle noise and rays of sunlight coming through the big trees. Very atmospheric.
Cycling on Don Deng was also nice and swimming afterward in Mekong.
And the most leisurely guest house was Vongpasued in Champasak with it's ever-laughing owner

Doing "the Loop" on a scooter is an adventure you will not forget easily. Highlyrecommended

Posted from within Vietnam.

After spending 3 weeks in Laos (not enough time at all!) my favourite spot would definitely be Muong Ngoi Neua, upriver from Nong Kieauw, which is north of Luang Prabang. Muong Ngoi was teensy, only had electricity from 6pm til 11pm, and the availability of certain foods was very variable - we stayed there for 4 nights (most tourists only stay 2 at the most), and I could have stayed there forever. There was pretty much zilch that we had to worry about, apart from which book to read next, and which small "restaurant" to eat noodle soup at. It was glorious just lounging in a hammock and watching the river Ou, the buffalo, the mist moving in over the mountains opposite, and the gentle rain. Heaven.

Mac - you got the wrong forum again. I think you confused TF for the salsa forum.

I echo the sentiments of those who have noted the loveliness of Laung Prabang. It's night market, the Kuoang Si waterfall nearby, an incredible garden bar/cafe high on the cliff overlooking the Nam Khan river called, appropriately, Utopia. I've particularly enjoyed watching locals and backpackers co-creating live music there. Also crossing the rickety bamboo bridge to while away a few hours before watching the sunset at the Mekong cafe...

But my favorite was taking the small boats ever so slowly up the Nam Ou to Muang Ngoi. Such beautiful lush countryside, such peace to watch the quiet fishing and the children swimming and marvel at the work being done on such steep hillsides. And Muang Ngoi, with only river access and limited electricity, was a delightful and fun place to spend some days walking, eating well, reading and watching life unfold.

I haven't been to southern Laos yet. Tentative plans for early 2012. Appreciate reading people's memories and recollections.

From the slightly posher end...
Don Daeng island.
La Folie hotel; a short cycle to Wat Phu, a great view of the river, a pool (!) and a pretty good steak frites...

Hey guys! Laos seems to be a very favoured country! It will be my next trip.. does anybody have been in bhutan, yet? The monarchy Bhutan seems to be a very oldfashioned and amicable place. Perfect for an idyllic stay!!

You make Somalia sound quite appealing, Mac. Cuisine, scenery, interesting people. However, I imagine the need for body armour and automatic weaponry will probably deter a lot of folks from going there.

"Collectively psychotic" ... that's a great line. Are they perhaps related in some fashion to American politicians?

Paralyzed and polarized.

We can only hope.

Been a year since I went now but having nostalgia now so feel the need to contribute to this.
North of Vientiene I loved Luang Prabang. Took the slow boat in from up north. Accomodation not that hard to find. After 2 nights I went in search of one of the only backbackers in the town - compared to the small amount extra for a room in a guesthouse, backpackers definitely not worth it.
The whole town is pretty tidy compared to a lot of places I went. Beautiful french influenced buildings. The night markets are awesome, I just wish it was further towards the end of my trip so I could have bought more stuff to bring home.
There's a bar somewhere on the western side of the little hill in the middle of town. Best bar I've ever been to. It has a volleyball court which I found myself playing on for hours and completely forgetting to actually have a beer. The giant dare jenga is always great entertainment, whether you're playing or just watching in the hilarity. Afternoons overlooking the Khan river on the bamboo balcony are incredibly relaxing.
The other favourite place I went to was in Don Det. THE most relaxed place. Loved the fact that following that tourist trail down from the top of Laos still had me bumping into mates I'd met from way further north. Best day I had was a quiet one by myself. Hired a bike with a pretty pink basket on the front and went in search of the infamous waterfall. I obviously took a serious wrong turn and ended up going right to the top of the other island that the waterfall is on. Was a massively long ride, but was a great adventure. There's a tiny little food place and a gigantic concrete slab that looks like its used to pull boats of some sort out of the water. Ventured back in search of the waterfall and took another small path and came accross a beach! Perfectly tempered water with lots of calm areas to swim in. Not that many people around at all and getting lost in a book here for a couple of hours in pure bliss.
Managed to get a flat tire on my bike (the roads really are terrible for bikes) at this point but had been told the waterfall wasn't far away. The walk back would have been a good 2 hours or so. The waterfall was actually not terribly impressive. The beach and the top of the island were my favourites. But I did manage to get a lift back with one of the tour groups. The driver was hilarious:
Me: "Can you please please please give me a lift back to don det village"
Driver: "Hmmm 10,000 kip"
Me: "I'll give you 20,000"
Driver: "No no, 10,000"
Me: "I'll give you 20,000 kip, I just don't want to walk"
Driver: "20,000??"
Me: "Pleaseeee..."
That ended up getting me a lift back with my bike tied to the back of the tour truck/bus. I think I ended up forking over about 30,000 in the end, still only about 3 or 4 NZD... sooo glad I didn't have to talk.
Overall I loved all of Laos. Only had 30 days to spread through Thailand, Laos and Cambodia but had nothing planned at all and ended up completely unintentionally spending just over 2 weeks of it in Laos.
I'm planning another trip to do Vietnam early next year but I think I'm gonna be sucked back into Laos just because I can.