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Isan, the good, the bad and the ugly

  • sayadian

    Joined Travelfish
    15th January, 2008
    Posts: 1557

    Just finished my tour of Isan and IMO (and I have travelled in the south of Isan many times) if you want to enjoy this lovely part of Thailand stick to the towns on the railway line from Korat.There are many ancient Khmer sites, starting from Pimai near Korat and near Surin,Buriram and Sisaket.Tat Phanom is a complete waste of time unless you want to be blessed with the Thais at the Wat.Anything North of that is a waste of time.Warning, stay away from Udon unless you are a sex tourist.This must be the ugliest town in Isan.Rows and rows of girlie bars and over-priced dirty hotels.

    #1 Posted: 8/2/2011 - 12:42

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  • svendj

    Joined Travelfish
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    hmm probably you haven't seen all of udon if you talk about it that way. you have seen about 2 % of the town I guess. Udon is really big, you just gotta find your way.
    Sex tourists are almost everywhere you go, just got to learn how to avoid them. Udon can be really good if you are willing to do the effort to check out the local places.

    Anyway, my opinion. Haven't been to buriram but one of my friends has and says it's really amazing. might check it out in a few weeks.
    Love the small villages all the way on the right against the mekong, so quiet and nice jungle treks (not that any of these are promoted, you just have to find it out yourself and catch you a local guide)

    #2 Posted: 8/2/2011 - 15:45

  • sayadian

    Joined Travelfish
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    Posts: 1557

    Well, I'm old enough to remember Udon when the children followed you because a farang was a novelty so unless it's suddenly discovered something of archeological interest I take it the other 98% you talk about has sprung up in the last decade or so.What I CAN see are a lot of tacky farang bars.I know places like Surin have Karaoke but it's not in your face like here.Ubon is far nicer place than this.Udon is a copy of Sukhumvit soi 4.I suppose it saves the girls travelling all the way to Bangkok but this has to be the most tacky city in Isan.

    #3 Posted: 8/2/2011 - 16:02

  • MADMAC

    Joined Travelfish
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    Posts: 6371
    Total reviews: 10

    Sayadian
    That Phanom has the oldest Chedi in Thailand. It's a beautiful and well maintained temple, and has a nice little museum in the back of it. Waste of time? You're kidding me right? I've been back to that temple five times. It's also a charming little town and the river area is pleasant, if small.
    NKP is a waste of time? The Ho Chi Minh museum is small but interesting, the area around the Vietnamese clock tower has some excellent restaraunts and nightlife. NKP is a cool little city with a very friendly vibe. How much time did you spend there?
    In Udon Thani obviously the site at Ban Chiang isn't very interesting to you... but it's one of the oldest sites with evidence of human habitation in Thailand, so it's certainly interesting to some.
    And while I agree that some people are interested in the ancient archeology that you pointed out, some couldn't care less about that, in which case other areas might be far more interesting to them.

    #4 Posted: 8/2/2011 - 23:48

  • Krabiman

    Joined Travelfish
    2nd January, 2011
    Posts: 223

    Burilam isn't much of a town. The streets are confusing and there's little to do. Surin to Ubon is nice. Go out past Ubon and spend a few nights along the mekong. Very pleasant out there and not a bargirl in sight. I never saw any bargirls in Surin or Ubon. If they exist they are well hidden. Phimai has good ruins and museum but it lacks good hotels.

    Sayadian, did you make it to Loei and Nong Khai?

    #5 Posted: 9/2/2011 - 06:43

  • MADMAC

    Joined Travelfish
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    "Very pleasant out there and not a bargirl in sight"

    On this subject, my friend, I am afraid you just aren't seeing it - they are EVERYWHERE out here. And I do mean everywhere. I don't know how you can miss it. I've traveled to all the provinces along the Mekong and working girls are here in the tens of thousands. Udon is LOADED with them, so is Khon Kaen, so is Nong Khai... loaded.

    #6 Posted: 9/2/2011 - 10:36

  • Krabiman

    Joined Travelfish
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    Posts: 223

    Everywhere? Don't exaggerate. You claimed a 100 per town and now it's everywhere lol

    Maybe you're just a whoremonger so they appear everywhere to you.

    I didnt see one between phimai and ubon.

    #7 Posted: 9/2/2011 - 11:04

  • Krabiman

    Joined Travelfish
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    Posts: 223

    "Udon is LOADED with them, so is Khon Kaen, so is Nong Khai.."

    They are in the central to northern part of issan which is along way from the places i mentioned.

    #8 Posted: 9/2/2011 - 11:07

  • Krabiman

    Joined Travelfish
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    Posts: 223

    " Mekong and working girls are here in the tens of thousands. "

    Lay off the drugs. Some of the towns and villages are so small they only have a few hundred people in them.

    #9 Posted: 9/2/2011 - 11:11

  • MADMAC

    Joined Travelfish
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    Krabiman
    I claimed 100 in Mukdahan - which is a small city. It's a round figure. It's probably more. Now, in this province there are five ampur - all of them have Karaoke bars with working girls. All of them. On the highways between Mukdahan and these ampurs there are yet more. Udon Thani is much bigger so is Khon Kaen. There are TENS OF THOUSANDS working in Issan - studies have shown that some 450,000 Thai men use the services of prostitutes DAILY. I've lived here coming up on four years. You can't miss it unless you just don't know what you're looking for. You speak Thai right? Go to ANY ampur -ANY - and ask where you can find a girl. I guarantee it won't take a hot minute. Drive from ANY ampur to any other and stop and check out the karaoke bars along the way. Then come back to me.

    #10 Posted: 9/2/2011 - 14:56

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  • MADMAC

    Joined Travelfish
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    Here is some more info I downloaded verbatim:

    Presently, according to the Thailand Government Public Health Department, there are approximately 75,000 prostitutes in Thailand. However several well-informed non governmental organization (NGO) groups estimate that the number of prostitutes at any given time is close to 2 million. This figure represents 9% of female adult population and 3.15% of total population
    Commentators on the "farang" prostitution scene estimate that there are some 50,000 to 75,000 women working in the bars of Chiang Mai, Bangkok, Pattaya & Phuket.
    According to reliable surveys of sexual behaviour, every day at least 450,000 Thai men visit prostitutes.
    Other incidental figures produced by the survey indicate that 81% of respondents had visited a prostitute within 6 months prior to the survey, 97% of military conscripts (2 year compulsory service) regularly visit prostitutes and 73% of the conscripts lost their virginity to a prostitute.

    #11 Posted: 9/2/2011 - 16:56

  • Krabiman

    Joined Travelfish
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    Posts: 223

    You're quite the whore monger.

    Try visiting southern Issan away from the whores and you''ll see a whole new side.

    "According to reliable surveys "

    Reliable LOL sex surveys are never reliable. Men bs all the time about sex.

    2 mill, what a load of bs.

    "81% of respondents had visited a prostitute within 6 months prior to the survey"

    so 22 mill male adults by .812 = 17.8m over 6 months.

    685,000 per week or 97,912 per day

    therefore "every day at least 450,000 Thai men visit prostitutes" is complete BS.

    So you would only need 100,000 whores at the one time, maybe double or triple that if some miss out.

    So a max of 300,000 whores which is 1.36% of adult female pop and much more realistic.

    2 mill is complete bs.

    The whole bargirl scene is the most over exaggerated thing in thailand. Inflated enormously.

    #12 Posted: 9/2/2011 - 21:30

  • Krabiman

    Joined Travelfish
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    Posts: 223

    "Udon Thani is much bigger so is Khon Kaen. There are TENS OF THOUSANDS working in Issan - "

    That's all well and good but as the OP and I have said that's why southern Issan is better. The bargirl scene is much bigger up north. That was the point of the initial post which you seem to have missed several times. Your obession with bargirls is a bit disturbing.

    #13 Posted: 9/2/2011 - 21:34

  • sayadian

    Joined Travelfish
    15th January, 2008
    Posts: 1557

    Wow, what have I started. I just wanted to make my point that I thought compared to the south of Isan the Northern corner was rather uninteresting.It's just my point of view. I prefer visiting the ancient Khmer ruins and most of them are in the south from Pimai to Surin ,Sisaket and Buriram.My all time favourite has now become a war zone, unfortunately (Preah Vihar) so you can strike that one off your list unless you get off on artillery bombardments.
    I must agree with Madmac though The whole of Thailand is infested with working girls.It feeds many a family.My point was that Udon has a bunch of tacky bars in your face on the main drags filled with loud whores.The Thais do things differently and tend to be a bit more discreet.I'm no whoremonger (quaint term) but I like to walk. I remember turning left at the railway station in Surin and a couple of miles down the road finding tons of Karaoke bars.I stopped to talk to the girls and have a beer because most of them speak Khmer as well as Thai and it gave me a bit of language practise.The girls were very respectful and friendly unlike the girls who work in farang establishments-pushy and rude.While I'm on this subject ,might as well get it off my chest, I just can't stand to see these stupid men being led along by the nose by these girls.No wonder the Thai men laugh at us.They really can't understand how someone with money allows himself to lose face this way with a girl. It reminds me of the story of the farang who walked into a go-go bar and wai'd all the pole dancers.Great way to make yourself a laughing stock in Thailand.Trouble is these idiots make us all look stupid.

    #14 Posted: 10/2/2011 - 12:03

  • MADMAC

    Joined Travelfish
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    Posts: 6371
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    "Your obession with bargirls is a bit disturbing."

    I am not obsessed with bargirls, I am obsessed with people blaming western civilization for everything that's wrong with the world and that's where your line of reasoning here was leading. Western tourism accounts for a relatively small percentage of prostitution in Thailand. That's a fact, not speculation, and when that fact gets twisted I find that disturbing.

    As for the rest of it, why would you find someone interested in bar girls or prostitution disturbing? I am married here, so even were I inclined sleeping around would invite trouble for me. But men are willing to buy nookie, lots of women are willing to sell it - it's normal. When more than 80% of a population group does something, that's within the definition of normal - it's normative behavior. Beyond the "Blame western culture" or "Blame America first" tendencies noted in some people, there is nothing worse than a sanctimonious beatnik. You don't want to sleep with hookers, don't. But if someone else does, what do you care? Why do you find it "disturbing"?

    Sayadian
    That you like khmer ruins is fine - but calling places a "waste of time" was, I thought, extreme. I think going to see Khmer ruins is a waste of time. I am absolutely not interested in the ruins or the history of the ancient Khmer empire. If I said "Went to Angkor Wat, complete waste of time. Don't bother." I am sure that would elicit response, even though obviously it would be only my opinion because I was posting it. I'm sure you see my point.

    #15 Posted: 10/2/2011 - 17:15

  • Krabiman

    Joined Travelfish
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    Posts: 223

    "Trouble is these idiots make us all look stupid."

    You would be stupid to think that.

    Most Thais are actually jealous of farangs because the average farang has a lot more money and can travel the world. Thais have to work 6 days a week just to survive. Thais laugh at themselves more than farangs. The avg thai has little to nothing to do with farangs at all.

    #16 Posted: 10/2/2011 - 21:17

  • Krabiman

    Joined Travelfish
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    Posts: 223

    "I am not obsessed with bargirls, I am obsessed with people blaming western civilization for everything that's wrong with the world and that's where your line of reasoning here was leading. "

    wrong wrong wrong. Pros are a world wide thing. I'm not blaming anyone. Just telling it how it is.

    "Western tourism accounts for a relatively small percentage of prostitution in Thailand. That's a fact, not speculation, and when that fact gets twisted I find that disturbing."

    That's misleading and speculation on your part. I've already proven your numbers to be false by a long long way.

    The avg thai and I know many doesnt have the money to be whoremongering often like farangs. After spending most of their money on drinking and smoking they have little left Thai men are often lazy and have girlfriends on the side so they dont need pros.

    "it's normal. When more than 80% of a population group does something, "

    They would be pretty normal in the west too. Western papers are full of adverts for pros. There would be guys in the west who visit pros once or twice a week. Not many thais can afford that.


    "Beyond the "Blame western culture" or "Blame America first" tendencies noted in some people, there is nothing worse than a sanctimonious beatnik. You don't want to sleep with hookers, don't. But if someone else does, what do you care? Why do you find it "disturbing"? "

    I find it disturbing you keep hijacking threads with all this misinformation and speculation about bargirls. You're obessed.

    Having spent a lot of time travelling around Thailand I find it misleading and annoying that people like you would focus on bargirls when those red light areas are so small compared to the overall population and what else is there. It's a minute part of the country.

    " think going to see Khmer ruins is a waste of time."

    Not much point visiting Issan then. That's the major highlight apart from the mekong.

    #17 Posted: 10/2/2011 - 21:44

  • somsai

    Joined Travelfish
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    Location United States
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    Back when I used to climb it seemed like I'd find a crag everywhere I went.

    I actually spent 3 days in Udon a couple years ago, I had more time to kill and was sick of Vientiane.

    I saw a grand total of one bar with a bunch of old falang alcoholics sitting around and some maybe young maybe not so young women. It was opposite the N entrance to the market. Saw a lot of guys around that looked the type, of course someone might well say the same about me. If the town was full of the sex trade they cleaned it out just for my visit. Of course I wasn't out looking for drink and romance either.

    Heck of a nice market.

    #18 Posted: 10/2/2011 - 23:22

  • MADMAC

    Joined Travelfish
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    Posts: 6371
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    Krabiman
    They are not my numbers. They are numbers generated by REAL RESEARCH, as oppossed to speculation. They are just reinforced by my observations. I have lived here for just shy of four years. Casey was just here, ask him what he thinks.

    And I am not hijacking threads with it. The original OP mentioned the fact, and YOU elaborated on it.

    "Not much point visiting Issan then. That's the major highlight apart from the mekong."

    And this statement is ridiculous. So there's not much point in living out here if we're not interested in Khmer ruins? Some people are interested in people, not THINGS. In which case, THINGS like ruins or Kharst scenery are not particularly interesting.

    Somsai - I've spent time in Udon. There are plenty of bars and working girls. If you're a nightlife guy, you can't miss it. I kind of have the feeling you're not a nightlife guy. Nothing wrong with that, but if you're in the hotel by 8 PM, well, you'll miss what's going on at night.

    #19 Posted: 10/2/2011 - 23:35

  • Krabiman

    Joined Travelfish
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    Posts: 223

    Real research LOL. They are made up nonsense. I have already proven the numbers to be wrong.

    "And this statement is ridiculous. So there's not much point in living out here if we're not interested in Khmer ruins?"

    There's very little to do in Issan without those attractions. You must be there for the bargirls you speak about.

    "Somsai - I've spent time in Udon. There are plenty of bars and working girls. If you're a nightlife guy, you can't miss it. I kind of have the feeling you're not a nightlife guy. Nothing wrong with that, but if you're in the hotel by 8 PM, well, you'll miss what's going on at night."

    You must walk around looking for bargirls. I have the feeling that's all you see at night.

    #20 Posted: 11/2/2011 - 06:48

  • MADMAC

    Joined Travelfish
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    Posts: 6371
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    Krabi,
    You have some good informaiton on some subjects, but on this, you're just out to lunch. You don't know what you're talking about, I know you don't know what you're talking about, and I am not going to waste my time trying to prove your ignorance. Ask anyone here in the know, and they'll tell you the real deal.

    #21 Posted: 11/2/2011 - 15:25

  • exacto

    Joined Travelfish
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    MADMAC is correct. I wish the situation were different, but it isn't, and that is all there is to it. Economic development has and will continue to mitigate much of the root cause, but it will still take many years before that fully happens. In the mean time, all the name calling in the world won't change the facts.

    Concerning the original comment about travelling through the Isan, I've always loved the areas along the Mekong, from Nong Khai Province all the way south. I suspect as Thailand continues to develop, these areas will manage to maintain their charm and still offer the great values so many of us remember from the past. Regards.

    #22 Posted: 12/2/2011 - 05:58

  • sayadian

    Joined Travelfish
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    Posts: 1557

    Madmac
    Point taken maybe the expression. ''Waste of time was a bit extreme'.Saying that I couldn''t honestly see a lot in Tat Phnom.You say the Chedi is old. What was I looking at then?It looked pretty new to me. Maybe they've just rennovated it.As far as the river front I've seen far better further up the river near Chang Khan but again that is a matter of opinion.If thosse idiot yellow shirts don't keep stirring trouble and you get a chance to see Preah Vihar maybe it will change youur mind about Khmer ruins as the walk up through the temples is spectacular and the main temple at the top of the mountain has a spectacular view.Probably at the moment someone is using it as FOP for the artillery so I guess you will have to wait.

    #23 Posted: 12/2/2011 - 18:40

  • caseyprich

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    We talked about the bar-girl scene while I was there, and it is a dominant part of the landscape - though that doesn't mean you have to take anyone home, sometimes you can actually get to know a lot about a place by just talking to the girls, you may find they have some of the best English in town!

    Just across the river in Laos I don't think there is nearly as big a scene, but there isn't as much development either. You also have no nightlife to speak of save the territorial dogs in Savannakhet after 11pm.

    #24 Posted: 12/2/2011 - 21:59

  • MADMAC

    Joined Travelfish
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    Casey
    I'm glad you had a good time man. It was great getting to know you. wish we'd had a little more time for Thai chess!!!

    Sayadian
    The Chedi in That Phanom was probably originally constructed in the 4th century, making it the oldest in Thailand. It was renovated and added to many times. It collapsed in a huge rain storm in 1975 and was rebuilt using the original materials. There is more, and it's a fascinating history actually. The river front is OK, but nothing fantastic. I like mukdahan's a lot more, and NKPs has a great view of the mountains in Laos. Just to the south of That Phanom is a cool place where you can eat in little huts on the river and then ride in inner tubes pulled by a speed boat. It's a hoot and you won't find any anglo tourists either.

    #25 Posted: 13/2/2011 - 00:24

  • neosho

    Joined Travelfish
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    Posts: 386

    Looks like I'm late to the game here. LOL Ubon has 2 farang bars but no bar girls will be found there. They are mainly frequented by us that are married to Thai women, or the occasional tourist. As for the sex trade, it's easy to find but not "in your face" like some areas. Seems no one has mentioned Khon Chiam. It's where the Mun River and the Mekong merge. Starting to see more westerners there but still not in mass. Sometimes you can go across the Mekong to a little Lao village on the other side but when I was up there a few weeks ago the Lao government had shut that down to foreigners again for some reason. I can't speak for the night life as we usually stay down by the river and party amongst ourselves. There's also Pan Tham National Park. The main feature is the cliff paintings. They are dated about 4 to 6 thousand years old. It's a pretty rough trek down to see them though. I myself love the view of the Mekong from the top of the cliff itself.

    #26 Posted: 13/2/2011 - 09:35

  • Krabiman

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    Khong Chiam has a few restaurants on the river that are good but no pure bars or bargirls. Pha Thaem National Park is very good too. I have several photos of the ancient paintings and they are dated about 1500 to 2500 years old. The paintings can be scene from 2 sides. One side has barriers and cut out steps so it's easy and most tourists use this side, the other is rough with no protection or people nearby to help if you fall.

    The town itself is small but a great place to chill out or catch a boat down the river or see the NP nearby. Very few westerners go there. The NP gets thai bus tours but few stay in town, which is located about 50 mins east of Ubon.

    .

    #27 Posted: 16/2/2011 - 06:23

  • Krabiman

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    "MADMAC is correct. I wish the situation were different"

    Actually his numbers have been proven wrong by a wide margin.

    It's pretty sad when someone can only see the redlight aspect of a country when there's so much more to see.

    #28 Posted: 16/2/2011 - 06:25

  • MADMAC

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    "Actually his numbers have been proven wrong by a wide margin."

    You didn't prove any such thing. I just got tired of trying to counter your BS. Those numbers are numbers generated by NGOs and social scientists. Anyone living here knows the deal if they aren't deaf and blind.

    #29 Posted: 16/2/2011 - 09:40

  • Krabiman

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    You posted crazy numbers that didnt add up and contradicted yourself several times.

    I see you haven't been to Khong Chiam. Having no bar scene wouldnt interest you.

    #30 Posted: 16/2/2011 - 09:43

  • Krabiman

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    According to a 2001 report by the World Health Organisation: "The most reliable suggestion is that there are between 150,000 and 200,000 sex workers."[8] A recent government survey found that there were 76,000 to 77,000 adult prostitutes in registered entertainment establishments; however, NGOs believed there were between 200,000 and 300,000 prostitutes.[3]



    So you can believe the 2m pie in the sky estimates that dont add up or more realistic ones

    #31 Posted: 16/2/2011 - 09:57

  • exacto

    Joined Travelfish
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    Krabiman,

    no, the statistics and estimates provided by MADMAC weren't proven wrong. besides, the figures he gave are much closer than yours to the ones i've consisentently seen over the last few decades from NGO's, US Government reports, and the Thai-language media. i would, however, be very interested in seeing the info that produced the numbers that you've quoted above. i tried following the links you gave but couldn't. will you provide the full links please? it would be great to learn that the numbers had in fact fallen.

    on a side note, you may want to lay off the personal attacks. if you'd look around, you'd notice that you are pretty much the only one on this forum acting like that. the down side is that those personal attacks undermine your positions and make it easy to discount your point of view. just sayin'

    #32 Posted: 16/2/2011 - 10:29

  • Krabiman

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    If you want to believe in fairyland statistics that don't add up that's your choice. It only undermines your credibility.

    "only one on this forum acting like that."

    Wrong, Madmac attacked me and started the whole argument by hijacking this thread.

    #33 Posted: 16/2/2011 - 19:10

  • MADMAC

    Joined Travelfish
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    First post by Sayadian:
    "This must be the ugliest town in Isan.Rows and rows of girlie bars and over-priced dirty hotels."
    Fifth Post by Krabiman:
    "Go out past Ubon and spend a few nights along the mekong. Very pleasant out there and not a bargirl in sight. I never saw any bargirls in Surin or Ubon."

    I was responding to the nonsensical notion of no bar hookers in Ubon and Surin. Pretty sure that does not constitute "hijacking" the thread.

    #34 Posted: 16/2/2011 - 23:28

  • Krabiman

    Joined Travelfish
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    I said I didnt see any.

    You go around looking for them.

    Try not to misrepresent the truth in future like you have done so far.

    BTW Khong Chiam on the river doesn't have any bars/bargirls.

    #35 Posted: 17/2/2011 - 06:26

  • MADMAC

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    Of course it does, along the 2222. I've driven that road on my bike at night.

    You are deluding yourself. This is Thailand. It's everywhere. Fact of life here, whether someone likes it or not (I'm actually neutral on the subject).

    #36 Posted: 17/2/2011 - 10:05

  • caseyprich

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    I don't want to get into this discussion based on hard numbers, but from pure observation I'd say that most major cities, especially those working as transportation hubs, there is a visible presence.

    I don't think it is correct to say you have to go around looking for it to see it, but you do need to be aware what you're looking at.

    Currently in Laos there have been public reports made stating the concern The Information and Culture Department has over some bars sliding into the realm of providing services that, "contravene cultural norms." More often than not this would be your karaoke bar that has blacked out windows - not your open door karaoke bar . . . it's also the karaoke bar where you have the hardest time finding a parking space. It's just a joke okay.

    An example that I'm more familiar with would be here in China. Prostitution is very common in China, though it contravenes cultural norms publicly, privately you will find at least one location offering these services in any neighborhood. However, your casual tourist would see this as a foot-massage parlor, with the twirling reflexology sign out front and pink lighting to sooth the patrons eyes. If you don't know what you are looking at you'll assume this is something to do with the culture of TCM.

    The same goes for the very opulent Karaoke bars - though many do offer just karaoke - there are many that are fronts for 'business meetings', where officials and decision makers are offered services to influence their opinions that go beyond a duet of the latest pop-hit. The place across the street from my apartment has the parking lot and sidewalk full with fancy cars most nights until the early hours of the day . . and it isn't their throats that are sore when the all male clientele spills out in the evening.

    Maybe the thread has gone off course, but it is still an interesting conversation.

    #37 Posted: 17/2/2011 - 11:07

  • somtam2000

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    OK, I should have looked at this post a while back - Krabiman - put a cork in it. If you can't use the forum without abusing other members, then head elsewhere.

    (edit) And for what it's worth, I agree with MADMAC

    Cheers.

    #38 Posted: 17/2/2011 - 13:01

  • MADMAC

    Joined Travelfish
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    Total reviews: 10

    Krabiman
    I don't care, you can say whatever you want about me. I'm not a real sensitive type of guy. Just don't do it with the other members here. I'm not going to complain. We've beaten this horse to death. Let's just say we agree to disagree and move on.

    #39 Posted: 17/2/2011 - 18:15

  • Nokka

    Joined Travelfish
    6th April, 2009
    Location United Kingdom
    Posts: 259

    It seems to me to be extremely difficult to know the number of prostitutes there are in any country, never mind Thailand. I've heard this debated in the UK with wide margins argued by both sides.

    The WHO report cited by Krabiman above is this one if you wish to take a look at what they say. Accurate numbers, I think, though are impossible to calculate, so I guess the debate will rage on.

    www.who.int/hiv/topics/vct/sw_toolkit/sex_work_asia.pdf

    #40 Posted: 17/2/2011 - 19:28

  • Krabiman

    Joined Travelfish
    2nd January, 2011
    Posts: 223

    I'm not abusing anyone. Just pointing out basic maths and logic and real research.

    You agree with 2m?

    How does that work?

    He's got tens of thousands in Issan so that leaves 1.9m+ for the rest of the country

    Basic maths and logic says that can't be.

    So you guys believe there's 500,000 in issan, 500,000 north and central, 500,000 bangkok and pattaya and 500,000 in the south?

    Think about it.

    Common sense says less than 1 mill.

    #41 Posted: 17/2/2011 - 20:03

  • Krabiman

    Joined Travelfish
    2nd January, 2011
    Posts: 223

    Major cities

    chiang mai 50,000
    udon 50,000
    khon kaen 50,000
    khorat 50,000
    bangkok 200,000
    pattaya 100,000
    surat 50,000
    nakhon 50,000
    hat yai 50,000


    major islands
    phuket 10,000
    samui 10,000


    other cities and towns
    10 times 1000 = 10,000
    100 times 100 = 10,000

    that's 690,000

    Logic says 2m is bollocks.

    #42 Posted: 17/2/2011 - 20:17

  • somtam2000

    admin
    Click here to learn more about somtam2000
    Joined Travelfish
    21st January, 2004
    Location Indonesia
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    Total reviews: 24
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    At least 113

    "I'm not abusing anyone."

    Not sure where you are from, but where I'm from, "whoremonger" isn't exactly a term of endearment.

    There's an obvious disagreement on numbers in this thread, and you're welcome to continue to discuss this disagreement civilly. If you can't be civil, then really, don't bother. Do I need to make it clearer?

    As far as the northeast is concerned, I love it -- the food is great, the locals friendly, and it's got that laid back rural/country people vibe to it that I like, a LOT. However, it isn't for everyone -- as Sayadian illustrated - and it certainly isn't awash in great "top tier sites and attractions" aside from the Khmer ruins in the southern strip.

    What it is awash in, and all of Thailand for that matter, are sex workers -- you can toss numbers back and forward, but at the end of the day, take this from someone who has travelled fairly extensively in Thailand, there are quite a few people involved in the sex trade in Thailand.

    Is two million too many? I dunno, I'm not a statistician, but there is a shitload - and certainly a hell of a lot more than 75,000. There's a lot, more by a country mile than anywhere else I've travelled, including Vietnam -- and that's saying something!

    Just to digress, we're really really busy at the moment, trying to get more stuff onto the site etc etc, and it would make my life a lot easier if I just had to worry about Vietnamese spammers rather than you guys throwing rocks at each other.

    So be nice and if you can't agree to disagree then go wash your mouth out with soap before you post.

    As always, thanks.

    #43 Posted: 17/2/2011 - 20:38

  • MADMAC

    Joined Travelfish
    6th June, 2009
    Posts: 6371
    Total reviews: 10

    'Nuff said I think.

    #44 Posted: 17/2/2011 - 20:48

  • Krabiman

    Joined Travelfish
    2nd January, 2011
    Posts: 223

    Yep thought so. My numbers are closer to the mark.

    Thanks for conceding defeat.

    #45 Posted: 17/2/2011 - 21:43

  • Krabiman

    Joined Travelfish
    2nd January, 2011
    Posts: 223

    "but where I'm from, "whoremonger" isn't exactly a term of endearment."

    That was posted days ago and is a rather common slang term. Hardly call it offensive between knock about blokes.

    #46 Posted: 17/2/2011 - 21:45

  • MADMAC

    Joined Travelfish
    6th June, 2009
    Posts: 6371
    Total reviews: 10

    I didn't concede defeat. I'm not going to get in a twist about the numbers (and while the two million figure was bandied about in something I cut and pasted, I'm not obsessive on it either). But I will tell you this, there is no Ampur or Jangwat in Thailand where you can't find women selling it. No in Udon, not in Khong Chiam, not anywhere. What the true numbers are are NOT what this discussion was about, it was about refuting your claim that there are places in Thailand where you can't find bar girls (minus villages). That's nonsense. Period. End of story.

    #47 Posted: 18/2/2011 - 08:49

  • caseyprich

    Joined Travelfish
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    Location China
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    Total reviews: 53
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    At least 48

    I was interested to see 50,000 in-house friends working in Chiang Mai - I looked up the population and got numbers between 250,000 - 300,000 for residents of the city. The metropolitan area which is almost 3,000 km2 has about a million people - not sure what the 50,000 refers to, but if its to the city proper then it sure would be difficult to miss when 1/6 of the population is involved in the oldest profession.

    #48 Posted: 18/2/2011 - 09:09

  • CrankyCarrot

    Click here to learn more about CrankyCarrot
    Joined Travelfish
    24th March, 2010
    Location Thailand
    Posts: 662

    If MADMAC changed his handle to "Whoremonger" would it still be abusive of Krabiman to refer to him as such?

    #49 Posted: 23/2/2011 - 07:51

  • Krabiman

    Joined Travelfish
    2nd January, 2011
    Posts: 223

    "I was interested to see 50,000 in-house friends working in Chiang Mai - I looked up the population and got numbers between 250,000 - 300,000 for residents of the city. The metropolitan area which is almost 3,000 km2 has about a million people - not sure what the 50,000 refers to, but if its to the city proper then it sure would be difficult to miss when 1/6 of the population is involved in the oldest profession"

    my point exactly.

    When you walk around you see very few bargirls compared to overall numbers.

    Est the number of bargirls per bar and times it by the number of bars with those types of girls and you get fairly low numbers overall which means the 2m+ hookers estimates are way over the top.

    Is there 500,000 bargirls in Issan, 500,000 in the north? Not if you use commonsense and do some basic maths.

    You would need tens of thousands of bars in each area with 20 girls (a lot of them would only have 5-10). Not a hope in hell. Try 5,000 bars times 20 and you have 100,000. Double it to include undergound ones. 200,000 in the 4 major areas of Thailand comes to 800,000. Even that's a very high estimate.

    #50 Posted: 23/2/2011 - 10:30

  • caseyprich

    Joined Travelfish
    3rd March, 2010
    Location China
    Posts: 1247
    Total reviews: 53
    Places visited:
    At least 48

    Thank god they're easy to spot!


    :)

    #51 Posted: 23/2/2011 - 10:47

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