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Are Canadians the new Americans?

  • longbeach

    Joined Travelfish
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    Did a mini bus tour recently and there was a Canadian on it who wouldn't shut up. Once he started a conversation with a British couple he spent the entire time turned around talking to them and he was running down Americans saying how he would never holiday there because they are ignorant and what not. Yet this guy was having his first trip to Thailand, had no clue and spent the entire day talking crap.

    When is it time to tell someone on a bus to shut up? I felt like telling him to shut up but let it slide. Have you ever told a loud mouth on a bus to shut it?

    #1 Posted: 9/7/2012 - 09:50

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  • chinarocks

    Joined Travelfish
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    No, I haven't, I can understand your frustration though.

    If you are doing any period of sustained travel then I would say an iPod and a good pair of headphones are a must.

    #2 Posted: 9/7/2012 - 10:06

  • Tennouji

    Joined Travelfish
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    You can hardly judge an entire population by one annoying person on a bus!

    If you politely point out that someone is being loud, 50% of the time they'll feel embarrassed and shut up, the other 50% they'll tell you where to go.

    Having said that, I've always found Canadians quite similar to Americans and their insistence on not being like them rather ironic.

    #3 Posted: 9/7/2012 - 12:00

  • oscarcat

    Joined Travelfish
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    Just this morning I was wondering why Canadians get such a good press and Americans such a bad one. Seems neither is deserved imho.

    #4 Posted: 9/7/2012 - 19:58

  • longbeach

    Joined Travelfish
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    I have a Canadian relative. Quiet and nice as pie. I just thought it was ironic as this guy was talking down Americans whilst at the same time being worse than just about any American I've met.

    #5 Posted: 9/7/2012 - 20:01

  • Tilapia

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    Would it be possible for someone here to explain what this has to do with Thailand?

    #6 Posted: 9/7/2012 - 21:29

  • longbeach

    Joined Travelfish
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    It happened in Thailand.

    #7 Posted: 9/7/2012 - 21:36

  • Bawhite125

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    I take offense to the title of your post. I'm an American and I know how to act properly. You've got take the good with the bad, and if you categorize people in such a general manner then you need to take a look in the mirror.

    #8 Posted: 10/7/2012 - 02:19

  • Captain_Bob

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    OMG! Your post is just, like, TOTALLY AWESOME!!!!!!!
    Every1's comments are also, like, soooooo kewl!
    Have a nice day (smiley wink face) eat a cheeseburger and shoot yer gun.

    Love,
    Captain (American) Bob

    LOL

    #9 Posted: 10/7/2012 - 02:55

  • altmtl

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    Personally, I'm annoyed by most Loud Talking Tourists who never shut up, whatever the Nationality - Be they Americans, Canadians, French, Brits, Aussies or what ever. I tell loud mouths in my own city to quiet down sometimes, oddly they get offended and call me rude - lol

    And yeah, this has nothing to do with Thailand and Longbeach's post - where ever he's from is that of an idiot - enough said

    #10 Posted: 10/7/2012 - 03:13

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  • longbeach

    Joined Travelfish
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    Posts: 307

    "and if you categorize people in such a general manner"

    Well, the reputations don't start from nothing do they? Of course there's quiet well behaved Americans but the whole loud mouthed American rep didn't start if there wasn't some truth to it.

    #11 Posted: 10/7/2012 - 06:32

  • chinarocks

    Joined Travelfish
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    "the whole loud mouthed American rep didn't start if there wasn't some truth to it."

    Is there any truth in altmtl's rumour that you are an idiot?

    #12 Posted: 10/7/2012 - 07:44

  • longbeach

    Joined Travelfish
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    If that's the best you can do then you haven't got much. Epic fail.

    #13 Posted: 10/7/2012 - 09:03

  • MADMAC

    Joined Travelfish
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    Longbeach
    Brits are known as boors with terrible food.
    Germans are known as Nazis.
    French are known as obnoxious.
    Russians are known as drunks.
    Southeast Asians in general are known as stupid.
    Spaniards and Italians are known as lazy.
    Arabs are known as lying and thieving.
    Indians are known as dirty.

    These kind of labels are neither fair nor accurrate. To say that "well, they have that reputation so it must have come from somewhere" is not very productive. I have lived in eight countries in my life and find people, cultural nuances not withstanding, to be pretty much the same everywhere I've been. People are people, and generic labels are not very useful.

    #14 Posted: 10/7/2012 - 09:40

  • longbeach

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    Indians are known as cunning and difficult to deal with and that's often true. Actually most stereotypes just are a rough summary of some of the characteristics. Of course they don't apply to all.

    Saying people are people is even more vague and less useful.

    Saying Indians are the same as others is just laughable if you have dealt with them.

    #15 Posted: 10/7/2012 - 09:47

  • longbeach

    Joined Travelfish
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    " To say that "well, they have that reputation so it must have come from somewhere" is not very productive. "

    So Greeks aren't lazy? I wonder why their economy is stuffed then. Open your eyes to the truth.

    Your Burger King logic doesn't hold up well to common sense and dealing with people.

    #16 Posted: 10/7/2012 - 09:50

  • longbeach

    Joined Travelfish
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    Look at Thais - hopeless at dealing with problems due to saving face and non confrontal approach and can't read maps. Yet you reckon people are the same the world over. Not even close. Look at how westerners deal with conflicts compared to Thais. I spent 20 mins working out minor issues with the front desk recently in Thailand. In the west would have taken 2 minutes.

    Thais will talk on the phone for 20 mins organising a lunch then you ask what time? Mai roo so they have to call back to cover the basics. It's hilarious how Thais communicate sometimes.

    #17 Posted: 10/7/2012 - 09:58

  • MADMAC

    Joined Travelfish
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    You are confusing cultural nuance with negative stereotyping. And I am not being pedantic here. Yes, each culture brings its own style to the game. But you seem overly concerned with the negatives vice the positives.

    #18 Posted: 10/7/2012 - 10:01

  • longbeach

    Joined Travelfish
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    Not at all. The thai attitude can be refreshing and good sometimes but not always.

    Greeks can be super friendly too.

    #19 Posted: 10/7/2012 - 10:18

  • MADMAC

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    Well, the title of this thread and your defense of same certainly came across that way to just about all of the above responders. Just food for thought.

    #20 Posted: 10/7/2012 - 11:02

  • billytheliar

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    @longbeach
    So Greeks aren't lazy? I wonder why their economy is stuffed then.

    While you keep wondering, take a look at the OECD statistics about working hours.
    You might even satrt recognizing that,let΄s say, the 1929 crisis was not connected to
    a laziness epidemic. Yeah, there are national charactristics. Falling for naive
    explanations is, on the other hand,relatively ubiquitous. There seems to be no nation-specific
    immunity against it.

    (Not necessarily proud of beeing greek)

    #21 Posted: 10/7/2012 - 16:45

  • longbeach

    Joined Travelfish
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    Posts: 307

    "Well, the title of this thread"

    Yes the headline was a good attention grab. That's what good headlines do. They don't sell newspapers on boring headlines.

    #22 Posted: 10/7/2012 - 18:07

  • MADMAC

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    And like a bad headline, the writer of the article gets grilled with the bad headline.

    Bold statements may get attention - but it might well be unwanted attention.

    #23 Posted: 10/7/2012 - 23:04

  • oscarcat

    Joined Travelfish
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    This thread could be moved it's relevance to Thailand was tenuous at the beginning now it's vestigial. To summarise we can all be idiots when we choose to be, me (especially) included. Some of us are born idiots, some of us choose idiocy and some of us have idiocy thrust upon us.

    #24 Posted: 11/7/2012 - 00:02

  • MADMAC

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    On the bus from the airport with my wife, mother and daughter going to Pattaya almost everyone who got on the bus was coming from long haul flights and were dog tired. We had flown in from Khon Kaen, but the flight had been early morning and the taxi driver was late, adding to our stress, so we were ready to nod off while on the bus as well. But one guy coming in from NYC could not shut up. He was talking to anyone and everyone who would entertain him and he had a string of moronic questions that were hillarious. It was slightly annoying, but that being off set by its huge comic value. When the bus reached what he thought was his stop, he grabbed his bags (literally two shopping bags, and a computer bag filled with papers and his computer. The strap broke on the computer bag, his shopping bag broke (well one of them) and he was wrestling with all this crap trying to get off the bus. The guy was an utter dufus on top of all of it. I ended up feeling sorry for him, because he was such a goofball life must be tough.

    #25 Posted: 11/7/2012 - 05:24

  • chinarocks

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    If he was American and on his way to Pattaya he probably couldn't contain himself at the endless supply of clunge he was about to get his conkers into.

    #26 Posted: 11/7/2012 - 06:17

  • MADMAC

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    Well that would have applied to about 80% of the guys on that bus - but the others were fine. Maybe they were vets.

    #27 Posted: 11/7/2012 - 06:20

  • longbeach

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    "he had a string of moronic questions that were hillarious"

    like what?

    #28 Posted: 11/7/2012 - 08:58

  • MADMAC

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    Oh man, I can't remmember them all But it started with his hotel (the name of which now eludes me). He wanted to know when he should get off the bus. He decided he was going to ask every passenger until he got an answer that seemed plausible. It was hillarious.
    The he wanted to know how much he should pay for a bar fine. Not the type of question you ask in polite company, or even not somewhat crass company. And remmember he was total dork. Birth control glasses, gauky kind of body that basketball players had before they started using steroids. In most cases that would come off as crude. With him it came of as comical. He also wanted to know what the food was like, and what health precautions he should take before eating it? He went off on a tangent about when he was in the Dominican and the tropical diseases there. And he was unintentionally loud, in a dorky sort of way. You had to see it to believe it. My mother started cracking up as soon as he got off the bus, tears running down her face. And mind you she's a conservative, practicing, religious woman.

    #29 Posted: 11/7/2012 - 11:35

  • longbeach

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    Well, Pattaya is world famous for bargirls and he was just being honest. Lot's of sleazy guys who go there pretend they are going for other reasons when you know full well that they are up to.

    "and what health precautions he should take before eating it? "

    You should have said "If it's chicken make sure it's cooked"

    #30 Posted: 11/7/2012 - 18:51

  • MADMAC

    Joined Travelfish
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    "Well, Pattaya is world famous for bargirls and he was just being honest. Lot's of sleazy guys who go there pretend they are going for other reasons when you know full well that they are up to."

    We have guys living here who go. And they don't pretend they are going for any reason other than to eat and get cheap nookie. But I suppose guys from whiteland would feel pressure to conform...

    At any rate I was not interested in having a conversation with this guy, and any response to anything would have encouraged him.

    #31 Posted: 11/7/2012 - 23:08

  • enigmatic

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    I met a group of maple-leaf cheeked Canadians on Canada Day who must have made the Justin Bieber t-shirt vendors very happy (don't think the adult male sizes shift very quickly).

    I mentioned this to the next Canadian he met who was terrified this display of ironic kitsch patriotism might indicate nationalist sentiments developing in his country.

    Reminded me of the few American backpackers I see, the ones that tend to apologise for their nationality as they introduce it.

    #32 Posted: 12/7/2012 - 00:37

  • MADMAC

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    "Reminded me of the few American backpackers I see, the ones that tend to apologise for their nationality as they introduce it."

    This is because the other westerners they run in to are coming from societies where Anti-Americanism is the last legitimate prejudice that can be openly practiced in their societies wihtout being politically incorrect. In Europe you can rag on anything that is American and that will be considered perfectly OK. Americans are too religious (don't say the same thing about Muslim societies or you will be labelled a Nazi - unless you are French of Belgian). American food is bad (invariably fast food is considered the only food that is really American). Americans are ignorant (but don't say this about Africans or Asians...). Americans are "cowboys" - a nice euphamism for barbarians. Etc. etc. etc. In my 18 plus years living in Europe I heard it all. And it all came from post 68ers. What you don't hear from that group is thanks for the Marshal Plan. Thanks for liberating us from the fascists. Thanks for defending us from the Imperial Japanese Armed forces and their rather different view of enlightenment. Thanks for defending us against the Soviet threat. Thanks for defending out oil supplies without which the global economy would collapse. Thanks for intervening in Bosnia and finally ending the conflict there with the Dayton peace accords. No. You ain't going to hear that. Not from post 68ers. They have no sense of perspective on the subject. They will focus solely on American policies they object to (always in an unsophisticated manner that doesn't seek to understand them), American music styles they consider without culutral merit, etc. etc. I have a lot of European friends, but sometimes their level of woeful ignorance on what constitutes real Americana makes my stomach turn. Not that the US is the greatest place on earth, or that it's government is a shining beacon of perfection or that it's people are perfect - it's just not the opposite either.

    "I mentioned this to the next Canadian he met who was terrified this display of ironic kitsch patriotism might indicate nationalist sentiments developing in his country."

    There is nothing wrong with a little kitsch patriotism once in a while, as long as you don't let it blur your judgement. During the World Cup, kitsch patriotism is in vogue everywhere, and it's all OK as long as we don't want to kill people cheering another team.

    #33 Posted: 12/7/2012 - 00:55

  • enigmatic

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    I've had Americans buy me drinks for having the temerity to point out to backpackers and expats from other countries that they weren't personally responsible for invading Iraq....

    On the other hand, I have to disagree with you on the Brits: the stereotype of us being boors with terrible food is entirely based on fact. Funnily enough, the only cuisine we look down on is German.

    #34 Posted: 12/7/2012 - 01:52

  • chinarocks

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    MADMAC - you forgot "thanks for the illegal wars".

    I also think the British deserve a lot if not more credit for freeing "us" from Naziism.

    #35 Posted: 12/7/2012 - 02:46

  • MADMAC

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    China - "Illegal wars". That's a tough one. The goal posts on that definition have been shifting constantly for the last 75 years for a lot of reasons. I was oppossed to the second Iraq war, BUT, and it's a big but, it was sanctioned by Congress, which makes it dejure from the US perspective legal. Now, of course, the European Community, in concert with the UN, has been working hard to make the definition of a legal war one which the UN sanctions. But, that concept does not have the sanction of treaty or law at this point. So I think you could say "Thanks for the questionable wars" and leave it at that.

    As for the Brits deserving credit - absolutely. From June 1940 to June 1941 they stood alone against a fearsome enemy. When Hitler proposed a peace deal (and for the Brits, it was a generous one indeed) Churchill turned it down, recognizing that having Nazi Europe on his doorstep was a Faustian pact if there ever was one. By saying that the US deserves credit for the above is not to imply that the Brits do not. All I am saying is that when offering up any valid criticisms, that should be balanced with appreciation for the positives - and it's not. Not in Europe anyway. Bashing Americana and Americans is completely acceptable in Europe, especially among educated circles. To put it simply, a large number (I won't say majority, I don't know the numbers) of Europeans consider America and Americans inferior. I suspect they harbor that sentiment about others, but their colonial past prohibits expressing that. But with Americans, it's considered completely OK. I know, because I lived with it for a very long time.

    As an example, if someone were to say "Cambodia is dirty, the people are dishonest and the place has no culture left in it anymore" there would be a stampede of criticism. But if someone says "America is a fast food culture that is shallow with no substance" and you said that at a cocktail party in, say, Heidelberg, Germany, there would be lots of heads nodding and I would be surprised if anyone said "wait a minute..." Bashing the US is the last acceptable form of prejudice in Europe. And among the backpacker set, it's the same deal.

    #36 Posted: 12/7/2012 - 06:09

  • chinarocks

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    I am not an America basher. I like the country and have lots of family there.

    However, I think you are talking pure daft to be honest if you think a country's internal Congress can determine the legality or otherwise of a war. By all internationally accepted standards and barometers, this was an illegal oil grab by one of the most idiotic presidents America has ever had.

    By your logic, the Taliban "sanctioning" 9/11 was acceptable and legal because at the time they were the de facto government of Afghanistan. Ditto for Iraq's invasion of Kuwait and countless other examples.

    #37 Posted: 12/7/2012 - 06:36

  • longbeach

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    "American food is bad (invariably fast food is considered the only food that is really American"

    American pizza is better than Italian pizza. They would have better Italian food allround as well. Just because someone invented something doesn't mean they are the best at it.

    #38 Posted: 12/7/2012 - 07:00

  • longbeach

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    I find lots of Americans friendly and fine to talk to. Most of the criticism is a wind up and aimed at foreign policies rather than individuals. America sure has some real dumb southerners but they also have some brilliant business leaders - Buffet, Gates etc. They have also contributed massively to music and films.

    #39 Posted: 12/7/2012 - 07:04

  • MADMAC

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    "However, I think you are talking pure daft to be honest if you think a country's internal Congress can determine the legality or otherwise of a war. By all internationally accepted standards and barometers, this was an illegal oil grab by one of the most idiotic presidents America has ever had."

    China, we are now on a subject I know intimately well. If you want to go there, I'm up for it. But the arguement that two states going to war requires UN consent runs into two problems:

    1. It has no historical precedent.
    2. The US is not party to any such treaty.

    International laws are generate via treaty. Please tell me which treaty the US has agreed to which requires UN consent to conduct military operations?

    "By your logic, the Taliban "sanctioning" 9/11 was acceptable and legal because at the time they were the de facto government of Afghanistan. Ditto for Iraq's invasion of Kuwait and countless other examples."

    Bingo. In case you have missed it, and apparently you have, the world is anarchic. And on this subject there is no law. In fact, the only precedent that I am aware of said subject is the Nurnberg trials in which Nazi leadership was charged with waging "aggressive war". Article 39 does address "Aggressive war", but the war in Iraq doesn't qualify under it's definition. The Rome Statue of the ICC mentions "crime of Aggression" but does not yet adequately define it nor is the US a party to same. Most arguements that the war in Iraq was illegal are emotional arguements, no legal ones. Kofi Annan has made the arguement that UN endorsement of armed conflict is required is a position the world has evolved to, but said position would NEVER hold up in any court.

    As for oil being the motive - check again. Guess who got the lions share of the oil contracts in Iraq when they went up for bidding?

    #40 Posted: 12/7/2012 - 08:39

  • longbeach

    Joined Travelfish
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    It's "argument" ffs

    #41 Posted: 12/7/2012 - 09:23

  • chinarocks

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    MADMAC - what you are saying is seriously open for debate and most right thinking individuals would not agree with your stance. The world may be slightly anarchic at times for sure but by your reasoning it could get a whole lot worse. I have checked out some of your arguments and there is plenty of material to go against your comments. I'm sure you can also find some to support it.

    All I can say is in all the arguments I heard put forward, even by the biggest hawks in Washington, none of them ever claimed it was a legal war, rather it was being done because of WMD (hence dubiously making it legal) and, when that failed, to depose a despot. Nobody ever came out and said any of the stuff you are saying above. My impression of you from this is that you are a staunch Republican supporter, who shudders at the "Socialist" America Obama is creating and that you would never oppose an America-initiated war because of fickle claims to patriotism.

    P.S. Does longbeach remind you of a 9 year old with a dictionary whose just read his mother's cooking book?

    #42 Posted: 12/7/2012 - 10:23

  • longbeach

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    " also think the British deserve a lot if not more credit""

    If you had a clue about WW2 you'd know the Britisth were hopeless soldiers. They needed the Aussies and Americans to save them and do the dirty work because their soliders were weak. British soldiers are pompous twats.

    #43 Posted: 12/7/2012 - 10:53

  • MADMAC

    Joined Travelfish
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    China
    "what you are saying is seriously open for debate and most right thinking individuals would not agree with your stance. "

    I don't care what "right thinking" individuals opine on the subject. I am telling you what the legal position is. And when you say something is "illegal", then by definition law must have been broken and if you can not articulate what law was broken, then it is not "illegal".

    "The world may be slightly anarchic at times for sure but by your reasoning it could get a whole lot worse. I have checked out some of your arguments and there is plenty of material to go against your comments. I'm sure you can also find some to support it."

    Have at it. You will find conjecture, even arguement about why it SHOULD be illegal. But only through twisted logic will it actually be found illegal. Cause it's not.

    "All I can say is in all the arguments I heard put forward, even by the biggest hawks in Washington, none of them ever claimed it was a legal war, rather it was being done because of WMD (hence dubiously making it legal) and, when that failed, to depose a despot."

    The WMD arguement alone would have made it legal. However, the only thing that currently can make a war by definition illegal is the taking of territory, which is now in the definition of aggressive war. So if the US invaded Iraq and then annexed some element of it (providing it wasn't a territorial dispute - in which case all bets are off) then it's not illegal. You might not like it. You might think it's immoral. But immoral is not illegal.

    "Nobody ever came out and said any of the stuff you are saying above."

    Actually what I said above is highlighted in treaty. If you are going to make a LEGAL arguement, you have to have a LEGAL foundation - which up until now, you don't.

    "My impression of you from this is that you are a staunch Republican supporter, who shudders at the "Socialist" America Obama is creating and that you would never oppose an America-initiated war because of fickle claims to patriotism."

    I voted for Obama, try again.

    I understand the difference between legal and illegal in the international context. Why? Because I studied the subject. It ain't about what someone "thinks". There are clear definitions. If you don't know them, it's hard to make an arguement about them. what LAW was broken that would make the invasion of Iraq in 2003 ILLEGAL?

    "If you had a clue about WW2 you'd know the Britisth were hopeless soldiers. They needed the Aussies and Americans to save them and do the dirty work because their soliders were weak. British soldiers are pompous twats."

    WRONG. Except for the mass surrenders (for which individual troops can not be blamed), the British soldiers performed roughly on par with their American counterparts. Where they "weak, pompous, twats" rest assured they would not have survived 1940, because they were up against arguably the most capable armed force the planet has known in the Wehrmacht of that period.

    #44 Posted: 12/7/2012 - 11:53

  • exacto

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    " I'll just assume you're young and uneducated from now on because you're clearly not very intelligent. Your knowledge of food is dismal and you are upset because I shattered your delusional romantic view of Italian food. Get over it."

    Welcome to Thorn Tree Mark II. There goes the neighborhood...

    #45 Posted: 12/7/2012 - 12:18

  • chinarocks

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    You don't have speak some rubbish MADMAC. Your arguments are actually so wrong that it is hard to counter them because you are starting from such a crazy base. The Iraq war and 9/11 were both LEGAL - incredible stuff!!!

    For somebody who claims to have studied International law, then you don't have a very good grasp. Check out what Sir Michael Wood, senior lawyer to the UK foreign office says about the war. I'm sure there are many more like him. I would tend to take their views a bit more seriously than yours, with respect.

    #46 Posted: 12/7/2012 - 16:37

  • chinarocks

    Joined Travelfish
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    Out of interest, in your opinion is there such a thing as an illegal war?

    #47 Posted: 12/7/2012 - 16:38

  • somtam2000

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    I'm not going to bother reading this whole thread as at a glance it looks to have gone off the rails -- if you can't discuss whatever this thread is actually about without attacking each other, please just don't bother.

    I'm going to lock this one off as it no longer appears to have anything to do with Canadians and Americans if it ever did. If you want to continue to discuss the legality of various military campaigns, please start a new thread in Idle banter -- no I'm not starting a new section for war confabs.

    Thanks & please be nice.

    #48 Posted: 12/7/2012 - 18:11

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